Dear Helen Thomas:
With a great deal of disappointment I watched your interview, replayed over and over on television, in which you said that Jews should “go back home to Poland and Germany.” I find it both appalling and unsettling that someone with your level of journalistic accomplishment would lack a basic knowledge of Middle Eastern history.
So please allow me to make the case as to why Israel has a historical, legal and moral right to exist as a Jewish state in the Middle East.
According to the Arab-Palestinian-Muslim narrative, Israel is an alien colony recently planted in the Arab world by American and European imperialism. This narrative recognizes no history prior to the arrival of the first Zionist pioneers in the 1880’s, and emphatically denies any ancient historical connection of the Jewish people to the land of Israel. This is the central lie, offered to justify uncompromising opposition to Jewish national rights. It’s almost as if they actually expect people to think the word “Israel” was invented in modern times. What is alarming is that their increasingly successful rewrite of history has taken hold in minds supposedly as informed as yours.

The Temple of Solomon
The historical truth is carved in Egyptian stone. According to a well-known hieroglyphic inscription, the tribes of Israel were a significant, established presence in Canaan no later than 1212 BCE. There is a vast body of archaeological evidence that demonstrates the ancient Israelite/Jewish presence in Israel/Judea as far back as 925 BCE. This historical presence is verified in the ancient records of the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Byzantine and Moslem Empires. The Arab conquest did not occur until 638 CE (AD). An exercise in elementary arithmetic reveals that the Jewish people were there eighteen and one-half centuries before the arrival of the Muslim Arabs.
Despite being conquered many times, the Jewish people have had a constant, uninterrupted presence in the Land of Israel for over thirty centuries. The Arabs and Islam have been there less than fourteen centuries. It has conveniently been forgotten that the Jews and Christians were there first.
Furthermore, in the thirty centuries preceding the re-establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, there have been only two periods when there was an independent, internationally recognized state in the area that now comprises Israel. Both of them were Jewish states. Even when this land was part of the Arab empire (638 CE/AD through 1099 CE/AD), there was never an independent Arab state in “Palestine,” by that name or any other.
No wonder Arabs are donating millions of dollars to U.S. colleges for Middle Eastern schools of study. They have a lot of hard historical evidence to rewrite in the young minds of students, most of whom enter college with little or no knowledge of ancient Middle Eastern history.
The Jewish people have a distinct national identity. Religion is only one of the unique characteristics that defines this national identity. In addition, the Jewish people have a separate and distinct language, culture and customs, with a documented history of development over the past three thousand years. The Jewish people have created a vast body of art and literature, both secular and religious, which reflects the connection of the Jewish people to the land of Israel.

The Dead Sea Scrolls, written when the descendents of the Maccabees ruled an independent Judea, demonstrate that the Jewish people, both in the Holy Land and in exile all over the world, have been reading and writing secular and sectarian literature in the same distinct language for over two thousand years.
In contrast, the Arabic language and culture and the Muslim religion of the Palestinians are essentially indistinguishable from the wider Arab world. Prior to the mid 1800’s there is no trace whatsoever of uniquely “Palestinian” art, literature, music, or any other manifestation of a distinct culture. If you find this hard to believe, try to think of one “Palestinian” book, or author, or artist, from the year 1300 through the year 1800. That’s a period of 500 years.
There must be one book written by a “Palestinian” Arab author. There must be one painting by a “Palestinian” Arab artist. Guess what? There are none.
If you still don’t believe it, ask a Palestinian nationalist or a Columbia University professor of Middle Eastern history to name one. The most honest response you will get is silence. The most likely response you will get is a lie.

Beersheba
People can propagate lies but they cannot erase historical facts. For more historical facts about the Palestinians and how they destroyed your own country of heritage, Lebanon, and how the Israelis helped and protected the Christians during the war, I invite you to pick up a copy of my New York Times bestseller Because They Hate. It’s never too late to learn and catch up on history, even at 90.






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106 Comments
Ms. Gabriel, you are such the anti-Helen Thomas in so many ways: daring, insightful, groundbreaking, and not least of all, incredibly sexy.
No sense in using truth and history when talking to a so called open minded Progressive.
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Pick up a copy of Max I. Dimont's "The Indestructable Jews" from the late 60's. well worth the read. Found it in my parent's library, and was fascinated. Compare that to the standard narrative of the MSM and the left, let alone the hateful cult of islam.
Excellent article. My only complaint, just stick with AD/BC. "Some people have begun to use CE instead of AD as a more ‘politically correct’ form. But just whose common era? Jews preceded Christians by at least a millennium and the two religions have surely not merged despite the hyphen in Judeo-Christian. I find CE a euphemism because the common era still begins with Christ’s birth and, thus, conceals the political implications." (Carol Lowery Delaney, Investigating Culture: An Experiential Introduction to Anthropology, 2004)
as I said earlier, I BEG, no, even INSIST that anyone here grab up a copy of Max I Dimont's "the indestructible Jews". It's out of print, but there are a half dozen or so for sale used on amazon. Critical information about the 4000 years of Jew's life in the region, the concept of the Diaspora, (which the jews invented), as well as the influence they had on creating what we hold dear as "unalienable rights". Those rights were dictated for thousands of years.
Right to a fair trial by your peers- Jewish Invention.
Right to education, regardless of socio-economic stature- Jewish Invention
Right to worship freely- Jewish Invention
Nowhere else, in the history of mankind, has a people, who have been conquered over and over again, been able to hold onto their identity, without a homeland, (after being conquered numerous times) without a place to call their own, for as long as the Jews have.
For clarification, I am not a jew. But, since we have no more Dhass and Randy, I guess that doesnt matter too much, now does it.
"Christianity" is simply a branch of Judaism, originally the Nazarene Tribe.
Just a personal peeve but the use of CE and BCE. replacing the BC and AD seems idiotic to me, especially considering that the numbering of years is still the same.
It's just another move to secularize society and science and seems to be another heartily raised middle finger to Christianity.
Meh…I guess it's just me.
Genesis 12:
1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.
2 "I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."
meanwhile, i will spend my time going BACK though some better bits of my library, such as: "Wanderings: Chaim Potok's History of the Jews", "The battle for Jerusalem" by Lt. Gen. Mordechai Gur, "Genesis 1948", by Dan Kurzman. Also, here's a few quotes from the back binder of "The Living Talmud":
"Say little and do much, and receive all men with a cheerful countenance"
"By three things is the world sustained: by justice, by truth, and by peace"
"Be of an exceedingly humble spirit, for the end of man is the worm"
Those quotes from a book I hold, in my hand, that was published in 1957. So you people blaming Jews, or American Conquest, can go shove a boot in your own ass.
Don't confuse Helen with the facts. She's already decided what the truth is.
THIS WOMAN ROCKS!
She has first hand experience.
An absolute wonder.
This info was just scrubbed like our constitution and history
Now where are all those Palestinian supporters? I'd like to hear an answer to Ms. Gabriels detailed and historical timeline. Shall we be graced with silence when truth is evident? Silence is golden.
There you have it. What more do we need to know.
Bravo.
Helen Thomas just came up with an apology:
"I didn't mean for the Jews to leave Israel, I meant for them to get the hell out of the US!"
She then said, "Where's the Beef?" and took a nap on the podium.
Nope. Not just you.
Actually, Helen misspoke. What she meant to say was "tell them to go back to Dachau!"
Well, at least she now has a lot of free time to get said education….
Even as we speak someone over at MSM or liberal university somewhere is rewriting this article to reflect the lefts foolish beliefs. Using facts and logic in your article was a noble attempt Brigitte. Just too many libs in our schools and universities that create the alternate universe our children are growing up in.
Thank you Ms. Gabriel. I am saving this article and if anyone dares argue the facts, I will show it to them.
Helen Thomas is a senile, demented old shrew. Actually she's been like this for over 30 years, so whatever she spews
is nothing new and she is not a journalist!! She is only a columnist. I think there is a big difference so why she had a front row seat all these years is a mystery.
Believe it or not I wrote down the title and author before reading your second post. Thanks for the suggestion!
Usurpation = PC (Politically Correct) modification of historically scribed/verifiable facts, denounced by today's "Scholars" (Those who know best) LOL!!!!!!! This lady isn't trying to fit the profile of the PC, she accepts the truth!!!!
I can see why guys aren't interested in Helen, but in you? Oh, wait you're both 'Lebanese'. Ok, that makes more sense now.
I just went from picture to comments and my ears are all red and hot and stuff, duuuurrrrrrrrrrr
Actually, that was an incredible piece that, again shows how the progressives are really in bed with the bad guys working to undermine our society and any other republic.
Nope, it's lots of us, AM66!
Just read an article in the N.Y. Times O( yes, that bastion of far lefty PC crap ), about genetic testing, which proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt that ALL European Jews ( sans converts, of which there aren't many ) have a pretty high level of the same genetic makeup. This proves that they all came out of Israel and aren't, as some morons, Helen Thomas amongst them, just European converts to Judaism.
Hell, even that all black tribe in South Africa, who practice Judaism, when genetically tested, most of the men had the male cromosomes of the Kohanim, or priestly caste.
Genetic testing and the discovery of DNA can now dispute all of the lefty and anti-Semitic garbage spewed by the crazy bigots.
You mean sect. There is no Nazarene Tribe of Israel.
[...] » Dear Helen: From One American Lebanese Journalist To another … By admin | category: AMERICAN | tags: angeles, angeles-county, arab, european, israel, [...]
The truth is we don't know the exact date of the Christian era, only speculation. We can not as yet determine the exact date of Christ's birth. Closest best guess is something like +/-4 years. And yes I like BC and AD better than the new dating.
[...] » Dear Helen: From One American Lebanese Journalist To another … The Arab conquest did not occur until 638 CE ( AD ). An exercise in elementary arithmetic reveals that the Jewish people were there eighteen and one-half centuries before the arrival of the Muslim Arabs. http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-ano... [...]
I love your rebuttal and facts, but using CE and BCE drive me nuts
Thanks for adding in AD as well.
Yes, you are correct we don't know the exact date of the Christian era but nevertheless the point of demarcation is the Birth of Christ, whether they use BCE or BC, AD or CE.
No matter what letters they use to avoid referencing God, the fact that there is a point of Before and After cannot be removed, otherwise this would be the year 5770 (i.e. Jewish calendar).
Great article. Despite the clarification above, to me CE means "Christ's Era" and BCE means "Before Christ's Era".
Hell, they didn't call themselves Palestinians till after the 1967 war.
Before that they were just generic Arabs.
Makes sense, but still think they should just leave it the way it was.
No tribe any more. They diluted out.
"Sect" suggests to me that the beliefs are more in line with the main body of Judaism.
HA! Great 'WTB' reference, BTW.
Actually, CE (Common Era) and BCE (Before Common Era) began over 10 years ago with the leftist PC push to remove Christ from everything. As you may know, Anno Domini (In the year of Our Lord) was once proclaimed throughout all of Christendom, used in our Gregorian calendar AWA the Julian. If you've read the related founding documents you'll notice the correspondence generally begins with this proclamation along with the date.
Old Libs and Atheists used to think this re-naming scheme was silly and unnecessary. All it takes is one generation.
In case someone wants to troll this, please allow me to head them off at the pass with a few points…..
It was "Our", as Anno Domini Nostri Iesu Christi clearly demonstrates.
Today in the following calendars: – Julian: May 29, 2010 – Hebrew: 5770 Sivan 29 – Islamic – 1431 Jumada t-Tania 28 – French Republic: Année 218 de la République, Mois de Prairial, Décade III Jour du Tridi (see what a silly secular calendar can get you?) HA!
Yes, why can't we leave well enough alone?
Helen spoke from her heart, while Bregitte is obeying her masters the Israelite's and if she dont do what they want they will kill her like they did with queen Jezebel, because of her religion. Bregitte and Helen they both Phoenicians and they represent equally the Phoenician heritage but their political views are opposite and that what is the middle east is about, it is a moving sand for every one steps into it. Bregitte dont forget the provokative policy of Israel government, this has nothing to do against the people of Israel, it is all about the corrupted leadership on both sides of the borders and the failure to live side by side with their half brothers, what about the air violation and the occupyinbg land of Lebanon. Support our Phoenician heritage and lets fight back for the original nationality of the land of the cedars.
No, they never were a Tribe.
The 13 Tribes of Israel are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Manasseh, and Ephraim.
(The Tribe of Joseph was split into two for his two sons.)
Jesus, being a descendent of David, is of the Tribe of Judah.
As it goes, yes, the Nazarenes were more in line with Judaism than modern Christianity, and so are more a sect of Judaism than a sect of Christianity. Either way, they were a sect and not a Tribe of Israel.
You forgot:
American Republic: May 11, 235
The most important other calendar in existence.
Indeed! Though I doubt I'll be 'officially' switching any time soon… my calendar's too loaded as it is.
I hear you.
Still, I think it should get a lot more play, even if it means a bit of inconvenience learning to write all dates with double years. Wouldn't be any harder than going metric.
Yes, Helen spoke from her heart which is full of hate for the Jews. Brigitte spoke from her heart which is full of truth and love for the Jews.
BTW you could make a small effort to show a little respect by spelling Brigitte's name correctly. It's not Bregitte.
Ms. Gabriel, thank you for your insightful article.
And living in Jordan. Until Jordan kicked them out.
CE and BCE is used by Jews. Because Jews do not recognize Jesus as a messiah, prophet or savior. AD/BC refers to Jesus which Jews out rightly reject. It has nothing to do with political correctness or secularism it has to do with Jews and others who are not Christians i.e. Buddhist, Hindus, etc.. recognizing the "Common Era".. and or the calendar used by the majority of the world. It is offensive to Jews to use BC/AD. Jews who are religious prefer C.E. and B.C.E.
It might be a pet peeve to you. But for Jews the use of BC (before Christ) and AD (Anni Domini/After the lord) is offensive. Jews do not recognize Jesus as a prophet, messiah or savior, and definatly not as a god. So for religious Jews the use of CE or Common Era or BCE before the common era is preferable for, in the modern world, except Israel, the Calender is based on the current date.. or common era..
incorrect B.C.E. is used by Jews for Before Common Era and C.E. is Common Era. Jews invented the CE and BCE as a way to use the modern calender in relationships with gentiles with out having to proclaim or accept Jesus s a prophet, savior or messiah which all Jews reject. BC and AD refer to Jesus' supposed divinity which Jews resolutely reject and absurd and as pagan idolatry
AD = Year of OUR Lord. Don't make me say "Our" when he's not mine.
CD is a circumlocution. I acknowledge that your calendar system has become the standard, without acknowledging that who you worship is G_d.
Great article.
Whether it's by ancient history, unbroken claim, conquest, or current occupation, the State of Israel has the right to the land. 1967 to 2010 is a lot longer than 1948 to 1967, and by 2017 or so 1967 to then will be longer than 1917 to 1967.
Another critically historical note is that at its root Islam is really just "New Age" Judaism explained by their fearless leader's own credo.
A quick read of the Koran reveals multiple references to the fact that God gave the book to "them" but they just didn't get it, he was the one that saw the light…
His God is the same and the book he references is the Bible, mostly old testament stuff as he had the same take on Jesus as the Jews do as well. Christians are similarly a combination of those inured by the idea of the end all prophet and of course the latter deification of same by the tatters of the Roman empire in a last gasp at ruling power (which was quite an impressive late-in-the-game trade BTW).
Yassar Arafat and Ariel Sharon sat down for negotiations. "Before we start, I want to tell you a story," Sharon said. "All right, tell your story," replied Arafat "After leading his people out of Moses and a companion stopped beside the River Jordan," Sharon began. "It was hot. So Moses removed his robes and waded into the river for a refreshing swim." Arafat looked at him skeptically. "I don't see what this has to do with our negotiations . . . " "Humor me, " said Sharon. Arafat impatiently motioned for him to go on. "After his swim, Moses climbed out of the river, only to find his robes were gone!" Seeing he now had Arafat's attention, Sharon continued, " 'Where are my robes?' Moses cried. His companion pointed to a man running down the river bank. 'That Palestinian took them!'" "Wait a minute!" Arafat interrupted. "There were no Palestinians in the time of Moses!" Sharon smiled. "Now let's negotiate!"
That's what I thought she said!
To show an ounce of respect for Brigitte is the farthest thing from Hannibaala's mind.
It's rather a three-pronged attack:
1. she's Lebanese, so hatred for her race.
2. she's a conservative, so hatred due to her politics
3. she's a woman who speaks her free mind, so hatred due her femininity.
When one drinks the Kool-Aid, nothing but hatred spews out.
Incorrect. It (CE) has been used at different times by different people but the first known use was vulgaris aerae in 1615. If you have information to the contrary I suggest you share it with wikipedia. The current (nearly 20 years AFAIKR) push by modern secularists has been to do away with AD – BC completely. I maintain that if they want a secular calendar they should create a new one and leave ours alone, but I have no problem with non-Christians using CE… just as long as we can keep our AD. Get it?
[...] we covered it here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and [...]
The Jews abandoned Palestine some 1500 years a go. They are not a race, rather a loose Religious affiliation.
If everyone went back to where they believe their roots to be, where would that leave us? Especially the USA! Exactly, it is an utter nonsense that Zionists use this ancient history as a justification to steal land, murder innocents and ferment war that threatens the very existence of mankind. If it were all about Jews having a "homeland" then they (the Zionists) would have accepted the offer from Canada for a tract of land to turn into a homeland.
The Jews are NOT the chosen people of God, they are are one version of that potentially beautiful thing we call "Humanity". The Zionists exploit the absurd belief of fundamental Christians, particularly in the USA, that it is some way a prophecy that the Jews *must* rule Palestine so that their (the Christians) warped religious view and expectations will reach fruition.
The Jews have fostered the hatred they experience through their self imposed isolation from the rest of mankind. They need to learn to be good neighbors and take up their rightful place in the family of man. Fortunately a few realise this, Barrenboim, Soros to name a couple but the great unsung heroes are the Jews in Israel who take a stand against the injustice and brutality perpetrated by their Govt. People like "Jews for Peace" and not least Lt. David Zonshein who is a member of Seruv, Israeli soldiers who refuse to engage in the vile oppression and murder of Palestinians.
More lies.
There has been a continuous Jewish presence in Israel for over 3,000 years. Even during the exile in Babylon some Jews remained in the region. The greater number returned when allowed by the Persians, and that was 2,500 years ago. Even when the Second Temple was destroyed by the Romans a significant number of Jews remained in the region, as they did after the area was conquered from the Byzantines by the Arabs, conquered by the Crusaders from the Arabs, conquered from the Crusaders by the Kurds, and conquered by the Turks from the Turks. No matter the conquerer, the Jews remained.
Jews are defined as an ethnoreligious group. They are a subgroup of the Semitic peoples and a religion. That they include various converts and intermixes from other races in no way changes that Jews are a race as commonly defined.
It is lie that Zionists steal land. Before Israel the Zionist organization legally purchased land from the owners. With the advent of Israel, that government has under international law legally incorporated land that was previously terra nullius.
It is a lie that Zionists ferment war. The wars have been declared and provoked by the Arab Muslims time and again, extending back to the vicious pogroms aimed at ethnically cleansing the region before there ever was a state of Israel.
As for some alleged offer from Canada, that is nonsense. Never mind that Jews have no historical connection to Canada, but it would require displacing people who already live there, something apparently unpalatable in Israel, so why would it be acceptable in Canada? Of course that assumes any such offer ever existed.
As for your commentary on religious beliefs, that merely demonstrates the true source of your deceit and anti-Semitism, a simple hatred of Judaism and Christianity.
Jews have not willfully isolated themselves from mankind. They have been deliberately excluded by anti-Semites like you for centuries. The Jews are quite good neighbors. The standard of living in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza was and is among the highest compared to the Arab states. People like Soros, who is not a Jew but an atheist, will have nothing but their vile anti-Semitism as their legacy.
You are a liar, and not a particularly good one at that.
The offer from Canada did exist but clearly you don't want to acknowledge that. Canada has huge tracts of uninhabited land, and had even more in 1947. It would be interesting to read the offer that was presented. The Canadians are reasonable people and the Jews had massive sympathetic support after the truth of the Nazi's was revealed. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that Canadians would have made a sacrifice to accommodate other humans in need.
The Zionist terrorists (Begin et al), murdered British soldiers to gain power in Palestine.
Zionists may have purchased land back in 18 something or other but they don't bother any more.
You don't address Barrenboim or Seruv and it's members or Jews for Peace. I imagine Soros may well disagree with you, I have never found him to be anti-Semitic. However anyone is anti-Semitic in your eyes if they criticise Israel and point out a few facts, because you are blinded by your hatred.
Saying the Jews are a race is like saying that Druids and Celts are a race, they were once but not any more. If I trace my roots they are Celtic, Anglo Saxon, Jew and latterly Norman but I don't claim or even need to claim any as my identity. Being a human being is enough for me.
"under international law legally incorporated land that was previously terra nullius" Tell that the people who are bulldozed off their land and millions displaced (I seem remember quite a few being massacred in Lebanon by the order of Ariel Sharon). I would have to check with Robert Fisk who was there and recorded the savagery.
I don't hate Christianity or Judaism, they, like Islam are Abrahamic religions and if one looks closely at the Torah et al one can see that it owes more to Zoroastrianism than it cares to acknowledge. In turn Zoroastrianism has its roots in the Vedas that the Hindus claim as their sacred writings although they are much older than that.
I believe Karen Armstrong has dealt with this subject to some degree although she does not go back far enough to my mind. I seem to remember an interesting interview with her by a German journalist, Andrea Bistrich. I'm sure you can find this on the Internet, if you are disposed to considering all points of view. But I guess your ID (BronxZionist) says it all.
I am not Anti-Semitic or anti any race or religion. They do seem to get in the way of a peaceful life though. This is because people are not free, they are conditioned by their upbringing and fail to see humanity as a single entity with variety. People need begin to think for themselves and not blindly follow Dogma. They need to begin to see things in terms of real human values.
All races have their traits, some desirable some less so. The British are remarkably arrogant and believe themselves to wiser than anyone else. Americans are idealistic to a fault, they are eager and willing to kill in the name of whatever ideal they happen to be holding. The Jews are acquisitive by their very nature. They are very good at it and mankind as whole needs that skill that they have. Unfortunately they use this skill for themselves and then enslave anyone they can through usury. This is at core of antisemitism.
I am not a liar but I have long been used to seeing the vicious and aggressive attacks from Zionists because someone doesn't agree with them. So I won't be expecting you to act in your full humanity and apologise.
Sadly it is rather late where I am and so I don't expect to read your response until maybe later today, Good-evening.
You are an anti-Semitic liar, plain and simple.
You lied about the Jews abandoning Israel.
You lied about the identity of the Jewish people.
You lied about the status of the land incorporated into the Jewish state.
You lie again about land being stolen and not purchased today.
You make some claim of a Canadian offer that exists nowhere else.
You lie.
You lie repeatedly.
You lie badly.
Yawn…..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
"Helen spoke from her heart"…..pity she didnt speak from her head.Or perhaps its already been cut of by the muslims?
So true. Islam is an amalgamation of Judaism, Christianity and tribal stuff. But you sadly miss the differences. Whereas Christianity happily points to the foundation of the Old Testament and believes that it pointed to Christ, Islam happily says that everyone before them were stupid and should die. True Christians love the Jewish Nation whereas Islam wants to destroy it.
So why do you lump Christian into the same pot as muslims?
BTW, you should study the attributes of God a bit more. Christians and Jews worship the same God. Islam's God does not exhibit the same attributes.
True Christians love the Jewish nation (me included. I love to study the Old Testament to see God's love of the Jewish people. Mostly I love to see how God was pointing to Jesus from the beginning of time).
But Jesus Christ walked this earth and turned many millennium of backward thinking (hatred, exclusionism, bias, lying, lack of forgiveness) on it's head. The fruits of true Christianity is visible everywhere (don't confuse them with the actions of evil people that have sought to use it as a smoke screen). Therefore it makes sense to diliniate that turning point in human history.
So BC/AD isn't factually wrong. I think you should use double numbers. You fixate on the total history of Judaism and I'll focus on the best thing that will ever happen to this world. (I am sorry that you allow your view of the importance of your history and culture to block your understanding that Jesus was the reason for the wonderful and long Jewish history).
I personally try my very best to respect people from all religions and display sensitivity and respect to belief systems that differ from mine trying always to find what we have in common so that our meeting can always be a positive and enriching experience.
The use of ‘BCE’ and ‘CE’ have never been used by me (or those of my peers who have been in my earshot) as any kind of attempt to secularise or give a ‘heartily raised middle finger to Christianity’.
My own belief is in the One G-d who made all creation, but I personally cannot accept the Christian messiah and so therefore for me to use terms other than ‘BCE’ and ‘CE’ offends my own belief system.
I hope that this information proves useful and you should know that at least in this little corner of the world the terms ‘BCE’ and ‘CE’ are used by someone who has many Christian friends who are greatly respected and warmly loved.
I just didn't want to appear too ethnic or isolationist, but for me the Jewish calendar is my most significant reference point, but living in a mixed society one naturally needs reference points that are accepted across the board.
Maybe you should take the time to research who this amazing woman actually is and delve into her life story… she has not come to this place by some kind of home-spun philosophy that she read on the back of a cereal package!!!
Well spoken, although unfortunately senility, dementia and old age are not the reasons for Helen Thomas' outburst. She has an over abundance of hatred looking for a venue for venting and though in America she represents an ethnic minority she is nonetheless a virulent bigot against a people who currently number 0.004% of the worlds' population!!
Sadly the more often that people like this tell their lies and spread their hatred, the truer and more appropriate they are perceived to become in the eyes of the world media.
For clarification I am a Jew and I am humbled and proud to say that we also set up the first entire court and whole legal system in response to the laws that were handed down to us on Mount Sinai.
It's a great book – I read it about 20 years ago.
The inherant pre-requisite of the messiah is that he MUST be directly descended from King David… In Judaism your authenticity as a Jew is given to you by having a Jewish mother, but your 'rank' or particular inherited 'position' is given to you by your father.
Seeing as Mary was reputed to be Jewish, then any son that she would have had would have definately been Jewish…
BUT… as the story goes… Joseph was not that actual physical father of the infant because 'g-d did it' so therefore any offspring in this circumstance could never qualify as the messiah even if he walked on the moon.
Because Jesus laid no claim to an earthly father he also could not lay any claim to a particular tribe – certainly not from his fathers' side… he most likely was absorbed into his mothers' side or adopted by his step-father Joseph.
If you reject the divine heritage, you are left with him being of the Tribe of Judah.
…and from where exactly did you source this conclusion?
I think you may be missing the point… not all of us are included in your expression 'ours' and for those of us who have no connection and/or reject the Christian messiah it logically follows that he is not nor ever will be 'our' lord.
Well, assuming the lineages given the in the New Testament are accurate, and thus assuming Joseph was a descendent of David, we have two main things to consider:
First, was Joseph the father? There are two possibilities:
1. The ever popular "virgin" vs. "young woman" translation issue. In such a case Joseph was definitely the father.
2. Mary was promiscuous, and Joseph was willing to marry her anyway, possibly buying into the whole "I was knocked up by the Holy Spirit!" shtick.
As for Mary, there are also two possibilities:
1. Since she is supposed to be related to the mother of John the Baptist. That would make her of the Tribe of Levi, and that would mean any children were of her husband's tribe, and thus of the Tribe of Judah.
2. If it was her mother that was the Levite that married out, the choices are then if Mary was of the Tribe of Judah or the Tribe of Benjamin. Since Jews then typically married within their Tribe, it is much more likely Mary would have been of the Tribe of Judah as well.
Either way, that defaults it back to the question of whether or not Joseph was the father.
So what conclusion do you draw as the most likely?
Well Bryn I have to admit that you really have a mindset that is not likely to be interrupted by actual historical facts, and the more times you repeat your rhetoric the truer you hope it will become.
If you wish to succeed in your stories you would probably be better advised in choosing a subject that you can defend with logic and truth, rather than just spewing your distorted rants of illogical hatred to a world who doesn't need it.
It's otherwise probably best to say nothing and risk people thinking you're possibly a hate-filled imbecile, rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Firstly let me say that I respect the way that you have thought this through quite thoroughly and arrived at your conclusions.
Your 2 options seem pretty logical although the Roman Catholic Church has turbo-driven the assertion that Mary was not only a virgin throughout this entire series of events, but was moreover always a virgin and upon her death was returned ‘unopened’. This seems to fly in the face of difficult waters when James is referred to as the brother of Jesus in a non-metaphorical manner.
Joseph was (according to the new testament) ‘concerned’ about this girls’ virtue until a dream came to him that everything was hunky dory because god did it.
My conclusions? That’s a difficult call as I don’t accept the new testament as an accurate document and as a Jew I utterly reject its’ message.
Having said that don’t forget that the rank, tribe or position with any Jew is inherited from his father and in order for the Christian messiah to inherit anything from Joseph he would have had to have been fully physically related to him, which was not apparently the case, as this religion claims that he was impregnated into Mary by a non-sexual act by a deity – thus removing Joseph’s lineage from the picture (and direct lineage from King David with it, which is a mandatory requirement for the messiah).
So Jesus was either the god-man that Christian writings claim and was therefore disqualified from being the messiah, or he was born in the conventional manner with Joseph as his regular dad, which would have meant that he was a member of his fathers’ tribe and a direct descendant of King David – but it’s an either/or as these two options are of course mutually exclusive.
This is a common response by those who are entrenched in their idealism. I deal with facts, what is the end product of this Zionist ideology? Hatred, bigotry and unkindness.
I am well aware that it is almost impossible to penetrate the husk of idealists, and so I don't seek to change you, rather I seek to educate those who have an open mind about humanity and the functions that they must learn if they are to survive.
What do you think you know? Probably everything and yet you know nothing of the history of mankind except what you have been told by others. Oh well.
I know that in order to bring about healing and balance one must invigorate and nurture the healthy tissue around the diseased part of the body. Then through absorption the ailment is in the ameliorated and maybe eradicated.
The great sadness is that the Jews do not see their destiny clearly, and it is a most beautiful one, I have been a Jew myself and I remember clearly the beauty of the power flowing through me.
That power should be used to liberate mankind and not bring the world to the point of destruction.
I am not against Jews, JewNotZionists.org have my vote.
You have yet to produce a single fact.
All you have lies, lies, and more lies.
Also, you are not original, this is a sign of person who does not Think for himself. Why don't you come up with your own wisdom laced statements? Instead you "poorly" paraphrase quotes from people who were truly great, you're an "also ran" who has never produced anything that was original.
Since I am not a Catholic, or any kind of Christian, those other issues are completely irrelevant to me.
Since the entire analysis is predicated on a non-divine origin, they become doubly irrelevant.
"I am well aware that it is almost impossible to penetrate the husk of idealists,"
It is not that difficult at all.
Whether or not you reject the Greek Testament, and even rejecting the miraculous happenings, there is sufficient side evidence to suggest a reasonable likelihood that there was a "historical Jesus". That leaves the rather simple analysis I presented.
Which, apparently, you agree with.
All you have is a limited vocabulary because you have a stunted mind.
I already provided extensive rebuttals to your lies.
Since you presented nothing new, only the same lies dressed up in new words, there was no need to do anything but note once again that they are lies, and you are a liar.
As opposed to you parroting the same old anti-Semitic lies without an original thought of your own?
No you didn't, why don't you deal with the fact that there are many Jews who DO NOT agree with Zionism. You are not in Israel, and yet there are peace activists who are Jews who live in Israel. Not you.
These are brave people who's eyes are open.
What is the end product of Zionism? What has it produced? Why won't you deal with these points honestly? Because honesty and integrity are not something you understand. You are not open minded in the least. You have told these lies for so long that you now believe them yourself.
Even though I am an atheist, (who was raised Jewish) it is impossible to refute the existence of Jews in the ME for over 3200 years. I say impossible because the archaeology demands recognition of this incontrovertible fact. Even though much of the archaeology has been destroyed by Arabs, much of it remains. "The truth is in the rocks."
The real myth is that "Jewish" identity in the ME started in 1948, after the Holocaust. Jews have a right and an obligation to defend themselves. It is a real pity that the Palestinians insist on destroying Israel. The Israelis made the desert bloom and flower. Palestinians sadly are "consumers" of the largess of Europe (and yes the U.S.) which continues to support them monetarily.
(continued)
That said, it would be excellent for Palestinians to start to make real peace with Israel, and allow the courts to give them some of the remuneration they do deserve for lost lands and properties. That must ALSO include remuneration and restitution for the Jews who were kicked out of Arab and Muslim countries after WWII, and lost EVERYTHING.
Real justice for Palestinians requires…first that they eschew from desiring and intending to destroy Israel…then, everything can grow from there. sanjosemike
Perhaps…but she describes REAL settlements that have been proven in the archaeology. It's OK to speak from the heart, but the heart first must recognize archeological fact, and then grow from there. Why do you deny the existence of fact? Of stone? Of history?
Restitution for Palestinians STARTS with their willingness to allow Jews to live in the ME, as they have for centuries. THEN, the courts can provide restitution and allow Palestinians (in some cases) to return to their property. sanjosemike
Just because some Jews disagree with Zionism does not in any way change the lies you told into the truth.
You lied about the Jews abandoning Israel.
You lied about the identity of the Jewish people.
You lied about the status of the land incorporated into the Jewish state.
You lie again about land being stolen and not purchased today.
You make some claim of a Canadian offer that exists nowhere else.
All Zionists, Jews and non-Jews, in Israel and elsewhere, want peace. Just because they do not accept the extermination of the Jews and the Jewish presence in Israel does not mean they hate peace.
That is the truth, and you are the lying anti-Semite who hates the truth.
I could trawl Internet for you and references in various books etc. but this would a waste of time with you because you are entrenched in your distorted viewpoint. People like you also want everything on a plate, you are not a genuine seeker of truth and consequently don't make any effort to gain it.
There were offers made for land in Canada but you don't care to look to see if it was so.
As for the other so called lies you accuse me of, well these are my opinion based upon my garnered knowledge and experience. Just as your assertion that I am Liar is. You don't any proof that I am one. But of course that is the Zionist way, any one who doesn't agree with you is an anti-Semite and a liar.
Go tell that to the JewsNotZionists.org, what they write about the Zionist betrayal of Jews and their culpability in the holocaust would make anyones head turn. I don't know if what say is true, but you do have to wonder why they say it. They are clearly focussed upon Judaism and want to pursue it in its purest form.
They are pro-Jewish to my mind, as I am myself. I just want them to focus on their purpose and destiny and I will focus on mine. From this we will bring mankind to its birthright. This will never come about if left Zionists.
AreaMan66. It used to bug me too. Then I found out that Jews do use that for themselves. Even Zola Levitt ministries used it in the Jewish calendar they hand out every year even so they are believers in Yeshuah. Their explanation is that it is a JEWISH calendar and therefore no other terms are used. Aside from that they never changed their way of counting, only the Christian world did.
How come that poor Kool-Aid gets such a bade rap?
Something I have encountered at a seminar held by a Syrian Christian in Lancaster, PA. This pastor is of Christian background. As in Brigitte Gabriel's case, being an "Arab" Christian doesn't mean automatically that you think of Israel better than the rest of them. As she said herself, Israel is the "little Satan" while America is the "great Satan." Her opinion of Israel didn't differ regardless of being a Christian or not. It changed only then with the eye shattering event of having to take her injured mother to an Israeli hospital from whence she became loyal to the state of Israel.
The Syrian pastor at the seminar even went to the point to call this land (Israel) cursed and we shouldn't waste time focusing on land issues and people issues because this is all part of the material world. What mattered is to keep the focus on Jesus Christ and Christ alone. Though he is not totally wrong with his observation (material vs. the spiritual), still he shows animosity towards Israel.
I did send an e-mail to his church concerning this issue but not surprising, never received a response. It is interesting that Arabs who became Christians after a life of hate and jihad, make a 180 when they embrace Christ, also embracing his chosen people. While Arabs that are born Christian do not necessarily share the same love or respect for God's chosen.
Which proves that being born a Christian doesn't make you a Christian (you have to come to a saving grace in Christ individually, not corporatively) and if you are saved, doesn't mean that you see certain things in a different light than you were being taught to.
I might go even further. A few people in our church have an outspoken love for Israel. We are very concerned about the dealings of this present and former American administrations with Israel. For the few of us it is hard to imagine if you can really be a Christian and do not share a love or at least a concern for God's chosen people. I, for one, would love to see all of Israel (proper and diaspora) come to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. BUT, and I mean a clear but, this does not diminish my few of the Jewish people. If I cannot see someone embracing God's son, I'd rather see him going back to his Jewish roots and embrace Judaism. For after all, the Christian as well as the Jewish Messiah came to his own (the Jews).
So, going back to the Jewish roots, at least brings someone back to the God of their fathers and hopefully through reading and understanding of the scriptures to a realization of Yeshuah as the Moshiach of the Jewish people. Just as many Christians, I included, feel drawn to Judaism, not for Judaism sake, but for a deeper understanding of who Yeshuah (Jesus) really is. Because the BIG MISTAKE that has been made throughout the history of Christianity (thanks to some Jew haters who called themselves Christians) is to totally seperate oneself from the Old Testament in denying any connection between the OT and NT even so both are clearly linked and leaning on each other. And sadly, instead of allowing the early Christians to partake in the Jewish Feasts or more proper, the feasts of the Lord, it had been forbidden them to take part in it even unto death.
And therefore the Christian church subsequently brought a long lasting wedge between Christianity and Judaism which prolonged even centuries into the reformed church movement and only within the last four hundred years, namely by Christians who left the old world to worship God in truth, manifested itself in the American colonies in an understanding and love towards the Jewish people and a future "new" Israel. Therefore, America could be rightly called a shining beacon to the world for the freedom it embraced and the love for the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. One has only to read the communication of our first President George Washington to the Jewish community and throughout the presidencies of the United States of America. Clearly, America hasn't been without failure. But like no other country it made often painful ammends as best as she could.
But what we see today with years of pushing God out of the public square and 50 MILLION abortions each year and the turning away from Israel and the Jewish people as even being done by both Presidents Bush and now without any shred of doubt Barack Hussein Obama we see the clear effects of such (i.e. oil spill, Katrina, collapse of the economy). In order to change the direction we are going, we have to be as coregous as Brigitte Gabriel by confronting evil, turning back to God, and absolutely – 100 % support Israel with no motivations but a love for God's chosen people. Like "Friends Of Israel" says, they are the elders of our faith.
I'm all for avoiding political correctness (political correctness is using pressure or manipulative terminology to get one to go along with some political view…presumably "correct") But when it comes to BCE and CE (Common Era) versus BC (Before Christ) and AD (Anno Domini, ie. In the Year of Our Lord) I think that it is BC and AD that are the politically correct views. Use of those terms are part of a very clear statement of religious or political belief. The use of CE or BCE is a move to use neutral language, that makes no statement of religion or politics either way. By avoiding provocative terminology one hopes that we can all get along better, whatever our religious or political views might be. So use of CE and BCE is a matter of good manners, and an attempt to *avoid* politically correct terminology.
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