The debate over same-sex marriage has cooled in many parts of the country. People have turned their attention to the healthcare bill and the new possibility of being blown up by guys with explosives strapped to their underpants.
In reality, however, the same-sex marriage fight is now being joined in earnest. Opponents of California’s Proposition 8, which provides that only a marriage between a man and a woman would be recognized in California, have sued in federal court. The plaintiffs—Kristin Perry, Sandra Stier, Paul Katami, and Jeffrey Zarillo—allege that defining marriage as a monogamous union of opposite-sex couples violates the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses of the 14th Amendment.

The case is currently at trial in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California, but it is likely to end up in the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court’s decision regarding Prop. 8’s constitutionality likely will, for all intents and purposes, permanently determine whether states can limit marriage to its traditional meaning. Of course, it is theoretically possible to amend the constitution to prohibit same-sex marriage in the U.S., but practically speaking it’s almost impossible.
I’m not going to discuss the case’s legal issues in this post. Instead, I would like to bring some attention to an issue that is peripheral to the case, and yet goes to the heart of the issue. The issue is the harassment, even persecution, of ordinary citizens who supported Proposition 8. This is a prime example of the “win at all costs” mentality shared by many on the Left. During and after the Prop. 8 campaign, the Left attempted to win through intimidation and silencing dissent. Unfortunately, those tactics are resurfacing now that Prop. 8’s constitutionality is being challenged in federal court.
Let me say, for the record, that gay and lesbian people have been the victims of discrimination. Discrimination in employment, or even just personal unkindness, is always wrong. It’s wrong whether it’s directed toward a gay person or against anyone else. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” includes “people I don’t really like.” In the current climate, however, it’s the supporters of Prop. 8 who were subjected to abuse and discrimination, not gays and lesbians.
The current trial threatens to expose supporters of Prop. 8 — such as 96-year-old Lorenzo Hoopes – to renewed harassment, much like the type of persecution aimed at Prop. 8 supporters last year. Here are a few examples, all matters of public record, whether from news stories or as part of testimony given under oath in the Prop. 8 litigation:
The acts of harassment were widespread and varied. Thousands of pro-Prop. 8 signs were stolen all over the state. Spokesmen for the campaign received death threats, which were serious enough that the campaign hired private security guards (declaration given under oath in the Perry litigation). Churches were vandalized. Incredible hatred was particularly directed toward the Mormon Church and individual Mormons, perhaps most notoriously in the “Home Invasion” ad that portrayed Mormon missionaries invading the home of a lesbian couple:
Off-screen, opponents of Prop. 8 marched on LDS temples around the country, not just in California. Maybe it somehow slipped past me, but I failed to notice angry hordes of Prop. 8 supporters storming the gates of Episcopalian churches that opposed Prop. 8.
Perhaps most disturbing of all, ordinary citizens who had donated as little as $100 to the Prop. 8 campaign were subjected to vicious personal attacks. Three of the most notable examples of this type of personalized persecution were a restaurant manager, the director of the California Musical Theater, and the director of the Los Angeles Film Festival.

The restaurant manager, Marjorie Christofferson, managed a family-owned restaurant known as El Coyote (which, incidentally, employs many gay and lesbian employees.) When her donation was disclosed pursuant to California’s donor disclosure laws, she became the target of vicious personal attacks and the restaurant became the target of a boycott.
The theater director, Scott Eckhern, resigned after his donation to Prop. 8 became public. The composer of the musical “Hairspray” refused to allow his musical to be performed by the California Musical Theater, and a producer of “Avenue Q” publicly castigated Mr. Eckhern. Similarly, Richard Raddon, the director of the LA Film Festival, also resigned after his donation became public.
Like Ms. Christofferson, Mr. Eckhern and Mr. Raddon are Mormons, a fact that did not escape their critics.
So what is the point of these anecdotes from a year ago? The point is that some—not all, perhaps not even a majority—of those who support same-sex marriage are prepared to win through fair means or foul. They will try to use intimidation to silence those who oppose them, even if they had once been friends, patrons, or colleagues. And you know what? Sometimes it works.
Over the past few weeks there has been an ongoing battle in the courts over whether the Prop. 8 trial should be televised (for the details, check out Ed Whelan’s piece here.) Thanks to a smackdown by the Supreme Court, the proceedings won’t be televised, but there for the vote of Anthony Kennedy went the witnesses. A number of witnesses expressed to the attorneys defending Prop. 8 that they would be unwilling to testify if the proceedings were televised. The danger to their families and livelihoods was simply too great. Should the proceedings be aired, the pro-Prop. 8 witnesses (especially ordinary people) would be branded forever as bigots, and left open to strangers stalking their homes and families — and if that seems far-fetched, bear in mind that many websites list the names, home addresses, and employers of Prop. 8 donors, some with helpful interactive maps.
The point, I suppose, is that in cultural struggles of this type, you often can’t depend on the other side to play by Marquess of Queensbury rules. Does that mean that proponents of Prop. 8 should stoop to that level? Absolutely not! But it does mean that if you’re involved with a contentious cultural issue, you should be prepared to pay a price. Often the people who are the ostensible oppressors (52% of California voters, in this case) are the ones who are subjected to harassment and mockery. In the Left’s playbook, a few thousand damaged lives are worth societal transformation.






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109 Comments
This is ACORN's playbook too. Come to think of it this is the Federal Chicago-style thugocracy on a local issue cultural level. The rule of law? It's looking for a discrimination suit to file. When the stripes quit calling fouls the game can get ugly.
Let us reduce the argument in this case to one simple arguement. Who brings such cases to the court on behalf of the plantiff's?
LAWYERS.
Therein might lie part of the answer, to most of the problems we currently face as a society.
It is Alinsky through and through. "In war the end justifies almost any means." And this all out war for the left.
These people NEVER give up…They think if we are hammered enough, we will eventually relent or be overwhelmed by the new drone voters that come pouring out of the Public School Madrases each year….We need judges that are sensible, reasonable, and driven to preserve one of the key building blocks of our still great nation…
Conservatives on school boards and the bench, while not real sexy, are key to self preservation…
I hold ill will to no one. I do not care what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. The tactics being used by th Gay and Lesbian community is actually not helping their cause. America today is mostly a live and let live kinda place. The real problem is that most Americans disagree with a minority who want their way now and that attitude could backfire. The ballot box not the courts is the best place to decide these issues. You cannot make a ruling and change what people believe.
Instead of challenging Prop 8 the best course would have been to wait a year or two and then float thier own propisition to overturn it. They would have had a couple of years to sway opinion but by attacking the people, which this court challenge does, they have shown contempt. The tacticts they use proves them to be dangerous, even if it is a tiny minority. That will leave a very bad impression. So who is acting like the Jack Booted Thugs now, it is not the people who supported Prop 8.
Same-sex marriage is now up to the Supreme Court of California and then the U.S. Supreme Court? Well, I guess we'll be having same-sex marriage everywhere now.
To be honest, I really don't care anymore.
Got that right, cowboy. Yeah, it's more leftist divide-and-conquer politics but there are always lawyer/looters standing around to take advantage fo the created chaos.
Two of the strongest foundational stones in any culture are religion and family. In order to destroy the United States, it is necessary to destroy both religion and family (among other things.) Promoting and legitimizing homosexuality, promiscuity, perversion all strike at both these foundational institutions, crumbling them, discrediting them, providing the means for harassing them. We've been witnessing this onslaught in the US for more than fifty years – it is deliberate warfare. Gays and their sympathizers are unwitting drones in this combat theater. I recognize that they are personally vested in this action, but wish they could see the broader scope of its consequences toward the destruction of the nation that allows them to live freely.
That video of the 2 "Lipstck Lesbians" is WAY over the top…Using two hot tamales to garner sympathy for your pathetic cause only makes me chuckle…They are not the image that enters my mind when I think of "GayMarriage"…What enters is not a pretty sight….
Elton John has it correct….Marriage is for Heteros….Civil Unions are for Homos …Sometimes children have to be spanked and learn to take no for an answer…Ear plugs help alot..
back in 98 when I wrote a column defending the Boy Scouts, the hate mail was unbelievable. I was sent porno greeting cards and my name was entered subscribing to every gay and lesbian magazine. My priest who defended me in the newspaper was subjected to the same.
Ah, that isn't nice.
But correct.
I always envision Rosie O'Donnell and Jeanine Garafalo…………..
Here is my simple theory:
Let every man that wants to marry a man do so.
Let every woman who wants to marry a woman do so.
Let everyone who wants to have an abortion do so.
Let everyone who wants to have unprotected sex do so.
Let everyone who wants to abuse drugs and alcohol do so.
Within one generation, most of our problems will be solved, and militant liberals will be extinct.
Just to add the key final component to CL's list…….
"……..and don't protect them from the consequences!!!"
Spot on!
To CboyLogic
How 'bout Al Franken and Frank Rich…Now there's a pair you don't want lingering long upon your cerebral cortex…Or anywhere else….
Meh, thugs are thugs no matter where you go. When the fight against segregation was raging, most were peaceful who convinced the majority with their ideas and their passion. A minority fought to destroy anyone who stood in their way. And another minority wanted to destroy because that is what they want – to destroy.
Violence and intimidation never works to your advantage. This is going to the supreme court and I hope anyone can make the mistake or experience the joy of being married, no matter your sex, race nor sexuality.
CowboyL
That's one of your best comments ever…But if we allow that who will we have to criticize?? But the thought does gives me a tingling feeling down my leg…
Those damn Boy Scouts really tear at the fabric of this Republic…Gay Marriage would be sooo much more preferable….a strong "NOT" to both….
This issue was put on the ballot, voted on by the people of California and shut down. Now if the court overturns the vote, what does this say to the integrity of the voting process and the decision of the people?
Legislation from the bench THAT'S the leftist American WAY!!!!!
Some things are, have been and will always be wrong.
It only reaffirms my belief that the judgement of the people always trumps the judgement of political beholden bureaucrats and activist judges with agendas that are usually counter to the wishes of the people. It reaffirms my belief that a group of learned individuals, two hundred and thirty five years ago, knew more about today's political processes than all of the bong hitting basketweavers that have graduated from the Ivies in the last thirty five years.
Can't we just simply say this is a "Separation of Church and State issue" and the State has no business changing the definition since it has been owned by religion for 1000's of years.
Lets use there own rules against them…
"Does that mean that proponents of Prop. 8 should stoop to that level? Absolutely not! "
And that's the battle cry of someone preparing to lose and worse. Carissa, you're a fool. An admirable fool but a fool nonetheless.
As long as these animals operate in a realm safe from consequnces, they will not only prevail, they will crush you. And you, although you will have your "ideals" intact, will deserve it.
Yeah, it's always the lawyers right? The people with many years of education that they worked hard for while you drank beer and partied, $100,000 in student loan debt, and a real job. The same guys who would help you out if one of your kids took a drug that killed them, etc. It's their fault. Get a life.
eeeehhh……. I know I left that mental floss around here somewhere.
When the Kristallnacht meets Vladimir Illich Lenin – and we should add here the MSM either ignoring all these, or condoning them by declaring the rectal right population as a mighty merituous yet grossly oppressed class (exactly the opposite), whose imaginary rights have been stolen -__Then we add here the courts' base complicity: __* in 2008 "judge" Rogers refusing to pospone the ruling, although the polls were clear that the next month's elections will void its decision, and this act would have been well within the judge's powers and would have prevented those 18.000 marriages to remain in limbo, then now -__* and now, we reached the point to see SCOTUS descending on "judge" Walker and admonishing him for trying to favor the plaintiffs (i.e. anti-prop8) -__The plus side is, that such actions like the rectal rights crowd's have badly misfired and now people see them exactly as they should be seen – a bunch of quarrelsome guys who try to inflict their whims upon an incresingly unsympathetic population -__The rectal rights bunch will lose the action in San Francisco – and so will happen in the incoming SCOTUS confrontation -__Good riddance – no partying sorrows -
Aaron,
Thin skinned lawyer, eh?
I don't drink or party. I raised my children to know that drugs were a bad choice, and thankfully, they turned out very well, with educations and professions. If you only had 100k in student loan debt, you sure didn't go to a top tier law school, eh? Three years at Boston College Law School is currently running about aboutn 250k.
I have a life. A good one. I have lived the American dream, and have been blessed beyond my wildest expectations. I have been to 48 States and 46 Countries, and never graduated high school.
Perhaps that's why you are so angry,some of US can do it, while others are left to chase ambulances and fight SSI cases………….
Exactly.
Next, you'll be having activist judges ruling that Scott Brown's win is invalid because Massachusetts is a traditionally liberal state.
One more thing. Check out this great blog post from Michelle Malkin:
"Dear Cindy & Meghan: Let’s talk about who’s really being silenced over Prop. 8":
http://michellemalkin.com/2010/01/25/dear-cindy-m...
Thanx man.
Get past the humor,and really think about it………..
Pull out all the stops for a few years, and let everyone rum amok. It won't be long, and the swamp just drained itself.
Thin skinned, blood suckin' lawyers …Cant live with 'em…Can't kill enough of 'em….and .200,000 more each year…I'm gonna need more rat poison…
.Isn't Obamba a lawyer? Oh and a teacher of Constutional law…Very impressive….
With your 10th grade edumacation, you write better the Aaron the Lawyer…
You know…….. That just might work.
Yes.
Barry is a lawyer, and so are the preponderance of those in politics and in Washington. Education does not impress me, I respect it though. I'll gladly throw my hat into the ring and match with any time, with anyone, whether it be in writing, or a verbal debate.
Aaron ought go back to school, and come back when he is better armed and prepared to joust.
Great majority?? What exactly is your sample size? To dbear, lumping in homosexuality with promiscuity and perversion is simple minded. Being gay or straight doesn't lead to either. LGBT people who want to be married and commit to their partner for life should be encouraged. Back to 98… believe it or not there are actually a lot of conservative gay people. I should know, I'm one of them.
To the rest of the other comments, when the far right (and the morman church) runs false and misleading ads, where is your outrage and scorn? To the person that talked about the ballot box… turn back time to the 60s and tell that to the African Americans…. let the majority vote and not judges or Congress.
Marriage is a law of God, straight out of the Bible (The forbidden Book (By them)), why do they feel their lifestyle needs to be validated by the God they deny and where is the separation of Church and State in this Court battle??!!!
The state should get out of the marriage business completely. Civil unions for all and marriage in the churches. Be careful, the definition of marriage is very different in the bible (especially the old testement) than what we have now.
Spoken like someone who never actually met a lawyer. I was a paralegal for seven years so I got to see them up close. THEY are the ones who drank beer and partied, and many still do. They spent $100,000 on an education that is way overpriced, especially compared to the damage they cause with their frivolous lawsuits.
They may be entitled to a vow of commitment to each other to legally bind them into community property laws when/if they go their separate ways, but other than that, marriage is of religious content!!!! They portray themselves as happy by adapting a synonym for joyous to describe their lifestyle, they call themselves "Gay", which is a description that they never seem to be, when taken in the former context of the meaning of the word gay/joyous/happy/jubilant!!!!!!!!
Cow-boy L
The only things you left out, now that I think more about it, are "open borders" and "balance of power".
If we let the left have their way for 20 years, THEY may slowly but surely kill themselves off, but the enemies from without will overwhelm those of us left standing as the left will welcome all comers from the South and replace the military with the State-ist Dept of Cow- towing…
If I had to argue this in front of the SCOTUS, my argument would be that equal protection does not apply because it is not an equal situation. After all, murderers and pickpockets are both criminals, yet the courts give them different sentences. I would like to see a convicted murderer argue that his death sentence violates equal protection because a pickpocket gets only thirty days.
Also, I think the court as it now stands (although, I don't know about Kennedy) would be extremely reluctant to overrule a democratically decided issue, let alone interfere with a state's constitution. However, they have done so in the past so I won't put money on this. Either way, it'll be 5-4.
BTW, I think that marriage has nothing to do with religion, The Bible, etc. If you want to know what marriage is about, ask yourself the following: Why was marriage invented? Or better yet: What problem was marriage invented to solve?
It's not distrust of gay folks that causes gay marriage to be repeatedly shot down – it's distrust of the far left. We know how they operate. We know that if gay marriage passes, the left will begin issuing arrest warrants for any clergy member who refuses to officiate a gay wedding under subsection 'xyz -123b' of the Hate Crimes statute. We know that public schools will present gay relationships as the norm, rather than an alternate lifestyle. Already our 'safe schools czar' has enjoyed a long career teaching 'fisting' and 'rimming' to middle schoolers as well as promotion of an aggressive far left, anti-traditional agenda. If regular, 'live and let live' gay folks wish to persuade opponents, they need to embrace traditional marriage as well as gay marriage, and distance themselves from the radicals in their midst. They need to assure opponents, via legislation if need be, that any clergy wishing to opt out may do so freely, without judicial penalty or harassment. They need to begin with Civil Partnerships in their respective States and gradually, merely by living their day to day lives, prove to opponents that they have no intention to hinder traditional marriage, and respect it's important role in society. They need to start populating their Pride Parades with gay doctors, lawyers, teachers, soldiers, etc., in place of the usual loud, leather clad weirdos in ass-less chaps performing lude sex acts on each other in the public square. If gays recognize that this change in attitude is necessary, opponents may then be persuaded of their good faith and mutual respect. So far, they've only confirmed that the vindictive left cannot help but over-reach.
My mistake. I misread and thought this was going before SCOTUS. I'm wrong here but I think it will eventually get there. My arguments still stand.
The "far right" does not run "false and misleading ads", you say they do, and the left says they do, but that doesn't make it so. There has never been an ad as misleading at the anti prop 8 mormon ad. "LGBT" people can marry….a person of the opposite sex, just like the rest of us. There will never be acceptance of "gay marriage". You may win through intimidation and abuse of the courts, but you will never be accepted. People are willing to tolerate you and your LGBT cohorts, but folks will never accept you as normal…because you are not.
By the way, including Bisexual and Transgendered into your circle of allies makes your cause a bridge too far for many folks who might be willing to accept gays and lesbians. Bisexuals are nothing more than hedonists who are willing to do anything to gratify themselves, and Transgendered persons are mentally ill.
You also need to add "so long as I am in no way forced to agree with it or subsidize it."
You sure got that right!
"State-ist Dept of Cowtowing and Bowing"
Would that be like the Department of Shuckin' and Jiving?
Oops. Probably shouldn't sat that should I?
Yea Cowboy….Something like that…Hey I gotta feed the horses…'nite now…
Keep dealing with abstractions until you reach a result not congruent with reality. The concept of "marriage" developed to provide for a relationship between a man and a woman based on the physical structure of the parties and the adjunct behavioral components that accompany physiological structure. A male and a female intermesh both physically and emotionally. They complement each other. to construe the faux attempt to emulate such a relationship by dysfunctional homosexuals who seek the imprimatur of the state to validate their delusions as being based on reality would make society a party to the delusion, sort of a folie a deux.
Please don't invite "normals" to the world of the dysfunctional, and redefine manifest dysfunction as "normal." These folks are demanding that society pretend that their delusions are based on reality. Then they bootstrap further incongruities onto each premise as it is accepted and further distort the function of society to provide as best it can a structure conducive to normal relationships and protection for children if produced by that union. In Common Law jurisidictions, court decisions have elaborated statutes and devised remedies for situations occurring in the context of a naturally normal male-female relationship.
At Common Law, and in U.S. jurisdictions, a marriage could be challenged if not consummated by coition, a physical impossibility with two same sex participants. The recognition of "marriage" of homosexuals is contravened repeatedly by the laws and conventions that developed to facilitate development of law to define the situation of parties to a marriage predicated upon the complementary nature of differing parties with differing soma and psyches.
Of course even now, the rights of others are being disparaged by the aggressive creation of "rights" for deviant behavior. For each "right" created at law, there is a reciprocal "liability" created in others. Through political manipulation, in some states Boy Scouts are barred from use of public facilities based on their refusal to admit overt homosexuals as scout leaders to serve as role models for their children, and also to enable homosexuals in position as authority figures to "chaperone" male scouts on overnight trips where such boys are the objects of sexual desire of homosexuals. Certainly, few would suggest that unrelated males accompany young girls on overnight trips as chaperones in situations where they are unaccompanied by others and the girls could be subjective to their libidinous urges. Yet the homosexuals demand that young boys be made vulnerable to them in equivalent situations. Once the state imprimatur of "the same" is accorded homosexual relationships, they will be vested with "rights" to sue for such accommodations.
It is indeed a slippery slope. And although I have supported the removal of state involvement in personal preferences in relationships and opposed criminalization of sexual activity, possibly it is time to return to previous situations and revive the status quo ante since the deviate community does not seem inclined to impose limits on its intrusion into the lives of normals with their demands for equivalency for their unnatural proclivities. A man and a woman can "marry," whatever their libidinous preferences might be. That they choose not to is their individual decision. That they expect a society to contort itself to accommodate their unnatural demands and pretend that the situation of two same sex people involved with each other socially is the equivalent to that of people physically configured to mate, is totally nonsensical, and if society capitulates to such inanity, it will have consequences far beyond those contemplated as the behavior of normals and their families yield to the demands of the deviates, who acquire encroaching legal status.
Bisexuals are nothing more than hedonists who are willing to do anything to gratify themselves,
This is freakin' brilliant! Is it negative or positive?
The next time you hear someone say that gays and lesbians are no different from anyone else……………watch a gay/lesbian parade!
You should read you some Aristotle. A society with no virtue will not produce virtous men.
You have hit the nail on the head. The exact reason that the pro irgender marriage crowd is trying so hard to have the State normalize abnormal relationships, is so that they can use the weight of the State to marganize mainstream Christian thought. To practice Christian sexual mores will then be to engage in discrimination against a legally recognized union.
What part of "the people have spoken" and "majority rules" don't these hypocritical hatemongers understand? The stormtrooper tactics that they use against anyone that dares disagree with them are abominable. And they're hypocrites and bullies because they don't go against African-Americans or other groups that voted for Prop 8 – just individuals that are easy targets.
I have no sympathy for gays anymore. I hope Prop. 8 stays, and then we should look into bringing the anti-sodomy laws.
Don't make me come down there.
The threats and harassment toward individual contributors participating in any legislative process is nothing less than voter intimidation, and electorate intimidation, seen in a larger perspective.
This harassment activity intensely focuses attack on selected vulnerable individuals within the electorate at large. Our entire citizen voting electorate, we who would normally feel free to express their private opinion by voting for or against any issue of interest, has generally, up to now, been protected from their individual votes being made public.
With the loss of this privacy protection, a single person or entire group can become a focus for retaliation by those in opposition to that vote.
This results in fear, intimidation, attacks on the entire voting populace.
We are seeing it played out right now in this case.
The privacy protection of a person's vote, and the prevention of reprisals on voters has the highest importance. should It must be fought against by all of us, as in the card check union election proposed laws.
Unless we all protect the privacy rights of we voters, it is even possible that citizens' previous voting choices would be used to deny them health care.
"But it does mean that if you’re involved with a contentious cultural issue, you should be prepared to pay a price."
WRONG! What it means is, you'd better be prepared to defend yourself. I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. Grow some cahones, America!
No act can be performed in isolation. These things are contagious, and if allowed to continue unchecked, will consume all of society. We cannot allow the "live and let live" philosophy to govern morality.
Gays upset at being treated differently (having the State use a word other than "marriage" for their committed relationships) are the most obvious interest group in this fight. It's easy to sympathize with some of their feelings. But there are reasons to seriously consider the tremendous changes in society which could result from using the word "marriage" to describe same-sex relationships — reasons which have little to do with current same-sex couples.
I worry about the long-term changes in the larger society which would result if laws requiring equal promotion of traditional and gay marriage were enforced. Women and girls seem to be more "adaptable" in their sexual attractions than are men, as a general rule. What percentage of 7-year-old girls would find marrying a boy to be an attractive idea, if they thought of marrying another girl as normative? Do we want little girls growing up with sexual tensions in their relationships with other little girls? How will that change society?
The NYT notes an interesting reaction by one of the wives in a new lesbian marriage in Massachusetts: she decided after marrying a woman that she was heterosexual. And we all know recent stories out of Hollywood and elsewhere about women changing their sexual orientation. It's not like we fully understand how sexual orientation develops. http://tinyurl.com/yd9e69a
One thing that is lost in this fight over the word "marriage" is the idea of marriage as an institution designed to integrate men into civil society and make their place in the family highly meaningful. We already know what happens when men are left on the periphery of family life. http://tinyurl.com/yddaodc
Marriage has become less and less attractive to men in the last few decades – particularly to those who are struggling to find a place in society. Do we really want to tell these young men that the role of "husband and father" can be filled by another mother (or maybe an aunt or grandma)? It's not like young mothers in struggling communities can just choose "good male role models" for their kids, like elite lesbian couples are careful to do. The most dangerous person in their child's life, statistically, is the new boyfriend. Do we need more fatherless children in America?
Will family life become more stable in these communities if we try to tell a young "baby daddy" reluctant to take on the heavy burdens of being a husband and father that his participation in his child's life is crucial (one of President Obama's messages) — while also telling him that his role as father could be filled by a woman with no disadvantage to the child? Will there be fewer cases of children murdering children if we tell their fathers in school that there is nothing particularly special about fatherhood?
Hell yea, I'd trade that too.
It can't be an equal protection issue, we all have the same right to marry…the opposite sex. Seems flawed in a basic way to me.
I'm all for getting the government the hell out of the marriage business, and simply not basing policy on marital status. How does that strike your conservative fancy? Let the churches who want to marry them go on and get down with their bad selves and the churches who don't buy this crap go ahead and not sanction it, smells like freedom to me. You can't demand liberty without granting it in return.
we now have over five years of experience in massachusetts with equal marriage rights and none of the apocalyptic consequenses that were predicted, and are still being expounded here, have come to pass. all we have are happy gay couples and happy straight couples who equally share in the rights and responsibilities of having a legal spouse, plus, any children being raised by those couples enjoy the stability afforded by the legal recognition of their family. how does this scenario, in any way, conflict with conservative societal values ?
In my intellectual discourse with gay acquaintances, I have found that the great majority are, as you stated, simply drones that go along with the dim-O-crat progressives simply because of peer acceptance. It is the activists that give the portrayal of LGBT folks as predominantly warped anti-Americans. Such is really not the case. Once their eyes are opened to the reality of leftist activism, LGBT affiliation becomes secondary to country. The problem is the hold that progressives have on charged issues and the head start that the hard left has on the activist mind. Slowly, that is changing. Indeed, the cure is to show the LGBT community where their best interests lie and that is happening. It is very slow work. I don't have the qualifications to make moral judgements. I'll leave that up to the big man upstairs instead of church laws written by man.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Vince Humphreys, greychampion, sjsturkie, inhuggermugger, John Robert Scott and others. John Robert Scott said: RT @BigJournalism: What the Ongoing Battle over Gay Marriage and California’s Prop. 8 Says About Us http://bit.ly/7rTprO [...]
You need to read a little history about what those wise men thought of the tyranny of the majority.
most especially including the intolerance displayed by so many of your followers…
You inadvertently hit the nail square. "They" are asking for a civil, not a religious, right. No church or religious organization is being asked/forced to sanction gay marriage. I wonder how people like you would react to the State stepping in and saying, "Sorry, Mark, you don't have the right to be involved in end-of-life decisions for your comatose wife…her family doesn't approve of you, and the fact that you've been together for 25 years means nothing."
Say that again and again Cowboy!
I have the same theory for the militant Muslims. Arm them all to the hilt with small arms and let them them all kill each others off.
"The greatest weapon of a fascist is the tolerance of a pacifist." Tolerance? A free society shouldn't be FORCED to accept any and all kinds of behavior.
Rally against the state for absolute equal rights in all matters of society.(and I agree ) But know this the state can only licence what is truly a legal contract, and nothing more. And cannot be anymore than that .
God is who you take your vows in front of and a mere mortal says you are now married.
You cannot demand from society that which is not societies to give.
THAT'S A LIE!
The whining homosexuals claim they only want the same rights as everyone else. THAT'S A LIE, if it were true there would be no need to change the law. On top of demanding special privileges, they also want to force society to accept their disgusting, deviant life-style as normal.
No one is born homosexual, we are ALL born male and female. Homosexuality is a DESIRE! Why should our laws give special privileges to a desire? A perverted desire at that. What's next? Incestual marriage, Polygamy? Pedophilia? Bestiality, Marry your mom? Marry your daughter? Marry a Goat? Marry a tree? Enough is enough!
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
Perversion Being Taught in Public Schools!
WARNING: SOME CONTENT CONTAINS GROSS AND DISGUSTING DESCRIPTIONS.
http://usataxpayer.org/?0039156365
There is Nothing Gay About It…
http://usataxpayer.org/?0068297850
Lets see how the children perform as citizens before you demand a judgement
A marriage license from the State is only for the legal protection of the parties involved. That being the case, let the government change the name to civil union for all who of those want to co-habitate together. Then let the religious groups determine whom they will marry.
For most of us with religious convictions "marriage" necesitates a consummation, not a State requirement. This is impossible for same-sex couples. Why? Because the human seed is not naturally welcomed in such unions. Such a union cannot naturally "be fruitful and multiply."
I love that the gays think that if this goes to the Supreme Court that gay-marriage will pass. Boy, I hope this goes to the U.S. Supreme Court right now. They would lose big time for two reasons: first, currently there is a majority of Conservative leaning judges on the bench. Second, marriage between one man and one woman has already been decided when polygamy was struck down. Use the arguments that made polygamy illegal and I guarantee they will do the same for any other non-traditional marriages.
There is also another Elephant in the room that has been ignored by all, but the writer of this article. Have you stood up for Mormons or do you see them as freaks, weird, and just as repulsive as the gay-marriage protesters? I am not talking about the outlaw Mormon Polygamists who are not related to the mainstream. Many Mormons feel alone and frightened. Often their friends in this one issue are just as much their enemies. Leftists are trying to intimidate what they see as a week link in order put fear into the minds of others with far greater numbers and societal respectability.
While I sympathize with the intended outcome, it just doesn't work out that way. Too much collateral damage. It's kinda' like carpet bombing; sure you kill most of the bad guys, but a whole lot of good people get destroyed as well.
Precisely. That is what got us into this fix in the first place -> government ratifying and incorporating religious traditions. But I must point out that it was conservative and religious people who demanded such. We sowed the seeds of or own problems because we did not have the faith of our convictions and wanted government sanction to "prove" we were correct. As much as I agree with your sentiment, its too late to undo it now, unfortunately.
Stop BEING VICTIMS!!!
You really want to be 'married'…DO IT!
All a marriage license is is a generational accepted presumption of what a marriage contract is!
Find a lawyer-make one yourself-no one is stopping you!
People voluntarily come together in civil contractual obligations EVERY DAY!
File your taxes as such.
If you want God to give you His blessing-have a ceremony and have a minister officiate-trust me-there are a lot out there that will do it!
Employers already generously provide for same sex partner benis…
Use them!
Get GOVERNMENT out of it!
You give them the power to define you and they will! They will also use you for their own political gain.
Right out of "Rules for Radicals".
Shakespeare was right.
Pedantic and prolix. Eschew obfuscation.
Right. Everything is GREAT in Massachusetts now. No problems. No "chilling of free speech". No closed adoption agencies. Everybody is free to follow their consciences concerning marriage. No one worries when middle school children are taught in school how two women can have vaginal sex.
Nobody expected an "apocalypse" in only 5 years. People expected gradual changes which would, over time, alter our expectations concerning marriage. Personally I can hardly wait until heterosexual men demand that their wives accept “for the most part monogamous, but for maybe a casual three-way.” as standard behavior for happy marriages. Because marriage is marriage. No reason to differentiate in what we expect from marriage partners based upon their genders. Right?
And what about bisexuals? They were down for this struggle. Why should they be discriminated against just because they're attracted to people of both sexes? What will bisexual marriages look like? Will little kids be confused about the responsibilities of marriage partners?
What's the ongoing battle over gay marriage and California’s Prop. 8 say about us? Some of us who like to say they don't want government intrusion into our lives welcome it in this case, which makes no sense to me.
If you really believe in limited government, fight for limited government. Don't welcome it with open arms just because it fits your personal belief on one issue.
There are plenty of legal documents available to fix that, and you can find legally binding agreements for as little as $10 if you shop around. Why change the very definition of the word "marriage" just so that they can pay an extra $40 to get the same document?
In the article, the author said "gay and lesbian people have been the victims of discrimination. Discrimination in employment, or even just personal unkindness, is always wrong. It’s wrong whether it’s directed toward a gay person or against anyone else." While I agree with the proposition that discrimination is wrong, I also have to admit it is wrong to dismiss someone for being discriminating. That is called Freedom of association. Why should a person be forced to associate, work with, or hire someone who is personally unappealing, for what ever reason, to that person. Discrimination is a shibboleth argument, that has been manipulated by the Progressive/Socialist. If we look to natural law, discrimination is perfectly natural and legal. Consider, if your a babe who looks like Giselle Bunchen should you be forced to marry Gary Coleman, or would you be discriminatory and pick a hunk Mr. Palen. (for you guys, if you looked like a Mr. Universe, would you sleep with Rachel Maddow) Same with hiring someone. If you work hard and open your own buisness, should you hire an idiot that will lose you profit. Of course not, it would be logical to, and in accord with natural law, to be discriminatory to hire someone you feel comfortable with and feel would be able to perform the job. So, the charge of being discriminatory is in of itself a non-starter.
As to the whole same-sex marriage thing. Sorry but there is no right that comes from being married. It is a religious and social contract that was devised for questions of property and children. No one is stopping Gay or Lesbian people from living a life together in a loving manner, as many non-married straight couples do. It is also an accepted fact that many straight people remain married for their children's sake, again not a right, but, like the desision to pursue a socially unacceptable lifestyle, a personal choice.
All your big words can't hide the hate!
It's ridiculous that 52% of the vote can be used to restrict someone's rights.
As soon as people realize there is no such thing as "God" the world will indeed be a better place. So much hate, prejudice and violence in the name of religion and God.
Hurray for tytx!
Unless of course it goes your way, right?
Please remove your head from your ass, sir. Everybody practices intolerance in some to a degree every day.
Really? Do you have any proof that there is no God?
The biggest problem legally is with the “Congress shall make no laws respecting religion” line from our bill of rights.
Sure the Churches, the Temples, and even the Mosques have the right to deny gay marriage if that is their religion. That is freedom of religion. Any religion which has declared homosexuality “an abomination” (to quote the good book) should not be forced to participate in furthering what it considers wrong. However, that is just in their own house.
When a new church opens and it says “Homosexuality and Gay Marriage are fine here” what is the arguement that makes their religion less valid than that of the “Moonies”, the “Wiccans” or even the Satanic church (with an estimated 8 members or more you can found a religion based on Star Wars Jedi Master anyone?
In conclusion you have a very hard way to go to place any limitations on gay marriage that will have a legal standing constitutionally but that does not mean you have to allow it. Public nudity is not allowed in most states but it is in others it doesn’t have to be fair it only has to be the law.
I have friends who have been together for over a decade and will probably die together but they will be denied the right to share insurance because they are not allowed under the law without marriage and of course they are both men so I see no fix beyond removing the cause for the request in the first place. If you need to say “marriage is sacred” in your own church go ahead, but don’t expect to be able to say it isn’t in someone elses church when they don’t agree. The reason for wanting same sex marriage from a purely secular point of view is many fold but here are a few bright spots. Shared housing access to “family” support, shared home, auto, health care insurance, shared responsibilities for property, shared responsibilities for treatment a spouse can approve treatment when the other is in shock or coma. All of these things a Spouse can do but a “friend” cannot. These restrictions are what drives the demand on the secular level. What you can do about it is change the requirement for insurance to allow someone to insure, grant medical care for, their son or daughter or friend just as if they were a Spouse with proper permission from the person being cared for insured whatever. The civil union is a nice name for walking around the marriage minefield to give these rights but it doesn’t matter what you call it the obsticales are the problem.
Non sequitur.
"let the majority vote and not judges or Congress" In California (Prop
the majority vote is in so it's no longer a matter of 'let the majority vote' but 'the majority have voted'…we should all decry any that are trying to overturn that majority vote!
So, are you talking about homosexuals in CA after the Prop 8 vote or conservatives in the USA after the 2008 presidential elections? Sort of like goose, meet gander.
To which culture are you referring when you speak of 'foundational stones'? The United States were neither founded in religion, nor by religious men. It would be difficult to state that the men who founded this country were 'family-oriented' either; many of the founding fathers were noted philanderers and several contracted syphilis from their varied dalliances. Taking the 'broader scope' of history in mind, these men saw fit to explicitly exclude religion from the founding documents of the nation and (later) explicitly include equal protection of all citizens under the law. It was the sectarian religious zealots that sought to bar the unification of the states in throwing off the yoke of British oppression. The continued insistence that religious principles ought to dictate policy precludes the possibility of living freely. Put flatly, If one American citizen enjoys federally-endowed benefits (like joint income tax filing, marriage incentives, etc) that are denied another American citizen on the basis of their particular sexual orientation, it is a breach of the Equal Protection Clause and, therefore, unconstitutional. And IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, YOU CAN GIT OUT.
Yes, the "great majority" THAT I HAVE TALKED TO. I am not a pollster. My discussions with people are no geared toward political cross sectional analysis. I have five friends that are gay that I chat with frequently. 1 is a staunch conservative. 3 are Dems who spout the party line like they are reading it when they talk to you. 1 is essentially, apolitical. In my tiny little sample that constitutes a "great majority". Of the three Dems, 2 are so full of Obama remorse, it's almost painful to listen to. Those two have found a lot wrong with the left that they so furiously followed before. They see conservatism in a whole new light with the blinders off. That is what I was driving at.
The LDS can publish whatever material they so desire. I didn't read it. Very easy for activists to blindly claim anything that is in opposition to their "cause" is false and misleading. I DO KNOW that LGBT activists are wrong when they go after counter demonstrators simply on the basis of hate, which is exactly what they did. That works both ways. The Mormons believe what they believe. It is their right. Quit pulling the victim card out whenever something doesn't go your way. It does nothing for your cause.
Marriage is a church institution that is recognized by the government for census figures and taxes. Period.
1. The only advantage to Marriage that I know of, as it pertains to government, is reduced income taxes.
2. Unless you want to reduce your taxes, your only reason for agitating for gay marriage is Cloward-Piven style activism. Just what is wrong with a civil union, which I understand is recognized widely? Maybe not. I haven't researched all the states.
3. Gay activists are equally culpable of trampling on a church members rights by trying to force that church into accepting something they do not accept in their beliefs.
If you were a Conservative in 98, I am assuming that the two Bush Presidencies shook your faith in Conservatism. I don't doubt it. Bush is/was not a Conservative as 41 is/was not. I have a lot to admire in GWB, but I have some major heartburn with most of his fiscal policies and the same predilections he has in common with big government liberals.
I would like to read your arguments, presented with factual evidence and supporting a logical conclusion, in that regard. 3AM bong sessions with Professor Birkenstock don't count. Nor does quoting John Lennon.
There is no proof that there is a god. In an instance–like this one–where there is neither proof of existence nor proof against existence, the logical conclusion is to infer that the thing does not exist until sufficient evidence (or any evidence) to suggest either existence or non-existence. Pascal's wager in reverse, if you will.
Remember,this is all because the Government requires us to obtain a License to wed,
But only when we are married in a Church before God are we truly married.
Let them get a License just like us heteros and if they can find a Church to marry them,so what?
You don't need to acknowledge them do you?
Bob
We now know that the far left holds that ethics and morals are subservient to the outcome. Anything goes so long as you win.
End and means, that is.
Look you stupid little white bitch, if some church declined your Nordstrum card you'd protest, so how bout you shut the fuck up.
Let's have the Mormons launch a campign to take away one of your civil rights (marrying the person you love) and see how quiet you keep. FUCK OFF YOU IGNORANT BITCH!!!!!!
I am personally involved in groups that do outreach to both African American and Latino communities in Los Angeles. Nice try Blow Hard, stay in Simi.
Fuck you, your not God , your an asshole
What you would like Bitch is a Theocracy. Congratulations, your almost there.
It's YOU'RE …not your…You must be an illiterate product of the PS Madrassa System…
I'm awfully proud of you! (sarc-yes!) That doesn't take away from the fact that anti-Prop 8'ers won't speak out against these groups as violently as they will individuals they don't think have the ability to fight back. Only liberal cowards use those kind of tactics.
I had to google Simi, since I'm not from CA. Sounds like a nice place – was that comment supposed to be some kind of homosexual inside joke? If so, you left yourself wide open using the term "Blow Hard".
Interesting article. Were did you got all the information from…
I like this site. I found it in Yahoo. I will visit and comment more often. To the site owner: would you like a link exchange with my site?
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