“America must always stand on the side of human dignity.” – President Barack Obama
I would like to thank the mainstream media for remembering Gao Zhisheng. One should give credit where credit is due, and in this case, it is well-deserved.
On February 4, 2009, Gao Zhisheng was abducted by the Chinese government. He has not been heard from since.
Mr. Gao is an attorney. According to The Economist, he is “one of China’s ten best lawyers.” He is also a Christian who has represented those persecuted by the Chinese government. His wife writes in the Washington Post that “he fought for those abused by the police, those who had their land stolen by the government and those who were persecuted for their religious beliefs.”
Gao not only defended his fellow Christians, but also members of the Falun Gong. This religious group is virulently hated by the Communist government. The U.N. Refugee Agency quotes a report on China’s persecution of the children of Falun Gong members:
Many children [of Falun Gong practitioners] have been directly targeted and tortured to death or thrown into prisons and labor camps. Hundreds of thousands of children have been forced to slander Falun Gong or, upon refusal, [have been] expelled from school.
Gao wrote an open letter to the U.S. Congress, in which he detailed crimes committed by the Chinese government, including the theft of private property, wanton environmental degradation, corruption of the legal system, and suppression of rights. His longest section dealt with religious persecution, particularly of practitioners of Falun Gong.
One of the instances of torture detailed in the letter is the case of a mother and son tortured to death within earshot of each other. He offered evidence to support the letter’s claims:
1). For each of the over 3,000 confirmed cases of Falun Gong practitioners who were persecuted to death (the number is still growing thanks to our indifference), we have:
a. their full name, date of birth, ID, and addresses
b. detailed accounts of how they were tortured to death
c. documents to prove their deaths
d. their corpses, ashes, and tombs as material evidence
e. testimony from their living families or friends
f. evidence for their arrests in most cases
g. for those whose organs were removed, the stitching on the bodies and the telephone conversation record with involved hospitals, and evidence provided by the transplant doctors involved
h. a large number of photos of the dead bodies
i. The people responsible for the killing are still alive and can be summoned and investigated by a special tribunal.

2). Many Falun Gong practitioners were never heard from after their arrest. Their families can testify.
3). More than 100,000 survivors who can testify about the tortures they suffered, such as electric shock on private parts, tortured with the “tiger bench,” and pricked by sharp bamboo sticks.
4). Tens of thousands of surviving Falun Gong practitioners who had been detained in labor camps
5). Those who are stilled jailed in labor camps
6). Millions who used to be detained in the brainwashing camps
7). Those who are still detained in the brainwashing camps
8). A large but unidentified number of children who were expelled from school and left homeless
9). Tens of millions who lost their jobs and financial sources, who were denied freedom and the right to go abroad
10). People of conscience within the CCP system who can serve as witnesses
This letter only exacerbated the Chinese government’s hatred toward Gao and his family. A year and a half prior to his disappearance—not arrest, as he was never formally arrested — he was kidnapped and brutally tortured for days. His written account of the torture is here.
Gao’s wife and children have fled to the United States to escape a terrifying form of house arrest the Chinese government imposes upon dissidents and their families. Gao’s wife, Geng He, continues to ask the U.S. government for help in learning what has become of her husband. It is feared that he is dead, as the Chinese police say that Gao:
… went missing while out for a walk.
Of course, these are the same people who abducted Gao in the first place, so they are not to be trusted. Geng He writes that she is unsure whether to hope her husband is dead, for if he is alive he is certainly being tortured.
Gao’s case has received a remarkable amount of media attention. President Obama, unfortunately, has remained silent. So it has always been. For every Solzhenitsyn there are a hundred craven informers. For every St. Thomas More there are dozens of graspers for whom power is the only principle.
But it isn’t too late for the president to stand for Gao Zhisheng. If he meant what he said in the State of the Union address—that “America must always stand on the side of human dignity”—standing for Gao would be a good place to start.
If you would like to learn more about how to help Gao, please go here.






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199 Comments
He was just nominated for a Nobel Peace Price – much more deserving than Obama. http://www.lifenews.com/int1457.html
Let us all remember that this is the same government that murdered their own young people in Tiananmen Square by running them over with tanks and shooting them. Oh, and they did this in front of the world, just Google for the images.
What's a few thousand dead Falun Gong? Pshaw…plenty more where that came from.
“America must always stand on the side of human dignity.” – President Barack Obama
Unless of course it is with our number 1purchaser of our federal debt.
Just words in the air Mr. President….words in the air.
Let us all remember that this is the same government that murdered their own young people in Tiananmen Square by running them over with tanks and shooting them. Oh, and they did this in front of the whole world, just Google for the images.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Vince Humphreys, greychampion, Netty Wisbaum, BigJournalism, IsaacCervantes and others. IsaacCervantes said: RT @BigJournalism: Who Speaks for Gao Zhisheng and the ‘Desaparecidos’ of China? http://bit.ly/cih3tw [...]
This is the future of any budding Communistic dictatorship. Silence of dissent through torture, forced labor and execution. Abolition of religion through torture and death. China is if not the worlds foremost offender of human rights then damn close and yet the powers that be do not even acknowledge that fact. I realize that they own 1/3 of our national debt, and that puts us in a rather precarious position. If you offend the Chicomms, then what happens next? They are almost our technological equals through their massive spy program, their wunderkind hackers who routinely steal valuable intel on our current technology. Something will have to give eventually, and when it does, it will not be pretty.
If he is a Christian, he will be in jail for 10 years making Christmas tree lights. The Red Commies have 50 million prisoners in manufacturing slave labor.
~~This is the future of any budding Communistic dictatorship. Silence of dissent through torture, forced labor and execution. Abolition of religion through torture and death.~~
Your post was excellent and so true. Was the Christmas decoration on Obama's tree of Mao the precursor of what's to come here but on a smaller scale?
God Bless Gao Zhisheng and family and all who are persecuted for their faith.
I say whenever you have a choice, pass up the Chinese product even if the alternative is ..say Russian…Not likely, but you get the point…ABC….Anything But Chinese…
Today in China, another lawyer is waiting for his sentence. What did he deserve this? He dared to speak out for the 5000 plus elementary and middle school students died in the earthquake in 2008. The cause of the death? school building collapsed. There was no concrete, the support poles and beams had no steel inside, or very thin wires. In China it is a crime to ask the government to find anyone accountable for the death of 5000 plus kids.
Communism is a religion, and the state is a jealous God.
I don't get their persecution of the Falun Gong movement. I don't even know if you could really call it a religion. It seems any popular movement with any spiritual overtones whatsoever is just not to be tolerated by the Chinese.
God bless Chinese Christian missionaries, trying their best to bring some spiritual light to the darkness their.
China has a constitution but it is an atheist one. Rights come from the government, not inherent from God. This is eventually what they want for us here. This would be the Elitist Utopia.
NYT writers like Frank Rich are even now calling for us to be more like China! Never in my life did I think I'd ever live to hear such things.
Marxism never sleeps… so neither shall I
.
Pt 1: Who the hell made this garbage article a feature article on a conservative site? This article is the biggest bunch of "Kool-Aid for conservatives" that I have ever seen. It's basically telling us "nevermind that this human rights in China issue was started by the left." It's the biggest bunch of crock you'll ever see because China has stood against the Progressives for a long time on the whole carbon-trading thing (which now is called "Cap and Trade").
I can see why. If America's constitution was identical to China's, the bankrupt New York Times would get government subsidies and be the official newspaper of the state, while his Republican opponents would all be disappeared, tortured or jailed. Tea party demonstrations would be crushed with T-72s.
It's easy to see why the statist left has wet-dreams about a more PRC-like America.
Pt 2: If Copenhagen doesn't prove to any of you that China is our best friend against this Progressive movement, then you might as well follow Mike Pence and bash the country that saved our butts from this Progressive movement because if Mike Pence has things his way, we would NOT be valuing our sovereignty, we would not be friends with China, China would not admire us, and we would be already under the United Nations Charter, which I personally call "the Communist Manifesto made for an International Scale."
Pt 3: Think about it! Although we may all agree with Mike Pence almost 100% on domestic issues, but on a foreign front, he’s for amnesty and China-bashing on the human rights issue. What’s he there for? He’s a VERY good speaker. I think he’s there to feed us Kool-Aid.
Pt 4: If people want to defend that brainwashing called "Falungong," they might as well be supporting liberal global warming indoctrination too. Falungong is just as dangerous, if not more. People are preached to and made to jump off buildings to commit suicide. In the old days, we used to call those things "cults" in the United States. Now we have a bunch of liberal Democrat appeasers even on BigGovernment who want to bash a capitalistic nation that will become the largest Christian nation by 2100.
Pt 5: Yes, China turns a blind eye to the growth of Christianity at a rate of 1/2 million a year. If you can't recognize that this "capitalism + christianity = conservatism" formula is OUR formula, then you are stuck in the cold war era. The truth is, China has opened their doors, and they admire us for our conservative values. China hates the Progressives.
Pt 6: Ok. I do admit that they can be doing more toward freedom and liberty, but I would not think that they are doing all that bad considering that they DID TRULY INHERIT their current system from Mao. We'd better worry about our own government than to go bashing a nation that cares about other nations sovereignty.
Pt 7: I was invited to China in 1983 shortly after Deng Xiao Ping took over. This trip was for Overseas-Chinese people to be welcomed. Why do they appreciate us so much? It’s because the United States showed them and the entire world how capitalism works on a grand scale.
Pt 8: My family once ran AWAY from Mao. Am I a Communist? I don’t think so. But given my ethnic background and language skills, I certainly know more about this subject than most Americans.
Pt 9: Keep in mind that Deng Xiao Ping was a man who LOVED WORKING WITH REAGAN!!!
Pt 10: If you don't believe me, then here it is from their own mouthpiece: Chinese Premiere Wen Jiabao accusing decisive nations of "an intrusion on their national sovereignty" when it comes to developing nations.
Pt 11: China is not stupid. They know the Progressives want to swallow everybody up, including us AND THEM. It is up to YOU to decide if you want to fall for this Kool-Aid or not. I urge BigGovernment.com to take this article down.
The Obama administration is more in tune with Mao than Gao. Tough ticket Mr.Zhisheng. May God be with you.
Pt 13: Still not convinced? China has been giving the Progressives a hard time over climate change. Please see my notes on CASS SUNSTEIN's "Climate Change Justice." Maybe THAT will open your eyes!
If he wasn't a Christian, would you guys be speaking for him?
You're not sure if you're not a Commmunist ?!? WTF !
Sweetheart. Religion is about to take a back seat to unbelievable carnage.
No one ever said China is stoooopid.
Acting stupid is not Chinese American or German (Greek yes). Acting stupid is human. Behaving stupidly is the cause of considerable angst.
China is a nation that is marvelous.
The world of Chinese hackers battling US central bankers et al? That is the crap that must end.
"It's the biggest bunch of crock you'll ever see because China has stood against the Progressives for a long time on the whole carbon-trading thing (which now is called "Cap and Trade")."
So, just because the CCP is sharp enough to not fall for Cap and Trade (but has pushed for the WEST to do so nevertheless), we are supposed to excuse the millions they have killed and the millions more they have enslaved?
Wonderful moral compass you have there.
"Pt 2: If Copenhagen doesn't prove to any of you that China is our best friend against this Progressive movement,"
It hasn't. In large part because THEY HAVE BEEN PUSHING TO HAVE US ADAPT IT EVEN WHILE EXCUSING THEMSELVES FROM DOING SO. And even if THAT were true, their naval arms buildup and aid to North Korea and Russia should disqualify them as our "best friend" period.
"then you might as well follow Mike Pence and bash the country that saved our butts from this Progressive movement"
NO COUNTRY "saved our butts from the Progressive movement." It is still there. And who is fighting it? Sure as HELL isn't the PRC, but the common man on the street.
"because if Mike Pence has things his way, we would NOT be valuing our sovereignty,"
Proof?
"we would not be friends with China,"
Um, we AREN'T.
"China would not admire us,"
They don't, save in a "worthy adversary that we must prove ourselves against and then destroy" way.
"and we would be already under the United Nations Charter,"
Um, to a large part we ARE.
"which I personally call "the Communist Manifesto made for an International Scale.""
And I suppose that the Communist tyranny from Beijing is any better?
"for amnesty"
Bad.
"and China-bashing on the human rights issue."
Very, VERY good.
"If people want to defend that brainwashing called "Falungong," they might as well be supporting liberal global warming indoctrination too."
Easy. I AM. Because while I am not the largest fan of Falun Gong and am CERTAINLY not a warmer, I at least RECOGNIZE THEIR RIGHT TO SPEW THEIR TRIPE! Censorship should be limited to that material necessary for national safety or less explosive but still damaging material in a time of war. The decision by the CCP to oppress Falun Gong is sickening for the same reason their decision to crush Tibetian Buddhism is, even taking into account Tibetian Buddhism's long and fairly dark history. It is still despotism. And the mark of a true free society is the structural confidence to engage the kooks in the marketplace of ideas and defeat them there rather than bringing out the storm troopers.
"Falungong is just as dangerous, if not more."
Very, VERY disputable.
"People are preached to and made to jump off buildings to commit suicide."
Preaching is legal. And while any time of group talking about suicide is delving into fairly dark waters, even if the CCP DID have evidence of aggressive and abusive brainwashing, that would ONLY justify actions against the leaders and others involved with it. It would NOT justify the indiscriminate persecution we are seeing now.
"In the old days, we used to call those things "cults" in the United States."
And in case you haven't noticed, Cults are STILL LEGAL in the US. It is only when they dive off the deep end into abusive or outright treasonous actions (See the Branch Davidians) that crushing them is justified. Or perhaps we should lock all the Moonies up simply because they exist?
"Now we have a bunch of liberal Democrat appeasers even on BigGovernment who want to bash a capitalistic nation that will become the largest Christian nation by 2100."
Absolutely. Because they are STILL a Communist, authoritarian, and unfree nation with pretentious of grandeur. They DESERVE that bashing.
"Yes, China turns a blind eye to the growth of Christianity at a rate of 1/2 million a year."
Asides from your random mass arrest and execution.
"If you can't recognize that this "capitalism + christianity = conservatism" formula is OUR formula, then you are stuck in the cold war era."
Well, since I am a Staunch Agnostic, I flatly REFUTE that. Because it is not religion that defines Conservatism, it is the VALUES THAT FRAME THE SYSTEM. Our modern system is framed by such concerns as protection for individual liberties, believe in equality of opportunity, racial/religious/ethnical blindness to the greatest degree it is possible, and the autonomy of the individual citizen to operate as he or she pleases.
China has NONE of these values. It has embraced religious, racial, and ethnical discrimination on a national level, a near monolithic dictatorship, the ownership of the citizen by the regime, and the nastiest and most corrupt form of crony capitalism I have seen short of something like the Nazis sending "undesirables" to work at the factories of those favored. Capitalism as it exists in China is a farce, an arrangement between Beijing and foreign companies where the common person is intentionally paid well below market value (the regime DOES set how much one can be paid for a certain job) and are largely deprived of the advantages one should have in a free market. This is not Conservatism, this is another form of tyranny, and it is LITERALLY right from the playbook of the interwar USSR.
"The truth is, China has opened their doors,"
Only because of strategic realpolitik. They aren't our frends.
"and they admire us for our conservative values."
Which ones? Commitment to individual liberty and the autonomy of the individual from the state?
"China hates the Progressives."
Perhaps, but that doesn't make them right. AT ALL.
"Ok. I do admit that they can be doing more toward freedom and liberty,"
Um, NO BLOODY KIDDING!
"but I would not think that they are doing all that bad considering that they DID TRULY INHERIT their current system from Mao."
And the Taiwanese inherited THEIR political system from the Chiang clan, with all the rampant corruption, despotism, and other charming things involved. And the Baltic nations inherited And the Baltic Republics inherited many of THEIR governing institutions from the Communist era. Look how THEY have done.
"We'd better worry about our own government than to go bashing a nation that cares about other nations sovereignty."
And when we DO do that, we will tell you. But China is not such a nation, as you would KNOW if you have studied their actions towards Tibet, Taiwan, the Philippines, and India.
"Pt 7: I was invited to China in 1983 shortly after Deng Xiao Ping took over. This trip was for Overseas-Chinese people to be welcomed."
Ah, lovely. I've been on a few trips there myself and to the USSR back in the day. And the rule of thumb is to NEVER, but NEVER believe you are getting the whole story on the guided tours. They'll show you the lovely picturesque city centers and maybe your quaint village or two, as well as a mildly troubled era they will hold up as a symbol of the work that is yet to be done.
What they WON'T show you is the interior, where the REAL troubles are.
Just save your money and time if you are offered to go again and go to India and cross the border there, where they don't have the resources to set up such Potemkin areas up. Act like a fairly clueless Westerner who doesn't know what happened in the region forty years ago (that lowers their guard). And once inside, take a look around. It is very, VERY illuminating about the nature of the regime. And it isn't good.
"Why do they appreciate us so much?"
They don't. Or at best they see us as a good market.
" It’s because the United States showed them and the entire world how capitalism works on a grand scale."
Perhaps, but I highly, HIGHLY doubt it, given how Chinese "Capitalism" often works.
"Pt 8: My family once ran AWAY from Mao. Am I a Communist? I don’t think so."
No, you are just a useful idiot, albeit a very minor one. You forget that the true measure of a nation is often in the interior, away from the more developed and cosmopolitan coast (case in point: Arabia, Russia, China, the Ukraine, the US, etc). And you also made the mistake that many in your position make: you trust your guides and those organizing the trip a bit too much. Anything they arrange has to be vetted by Beijing or at least one of its local offices, and they are not afraid to use that power to vet the tour to suit its needs. Don't believe me, check out "Memoir of a KGB Tour Guide", by Kozlov. It is VERY interesting reading.
" But given my ethnic background and language skills, I certainly know more about this subject than most Americans."
True, but you are still wrong.
No he didn't That is called REALPOLITIK, ladies and gentlemen.
Which is standard rhetoric that has more to do with "intrusions" regarding Taiwan, China, and the Spraty islands than with Global warming. Nothing to really see here.
Sorry, but we stopped caring about how China treats the Chinese when we started "free trade" with them.
"Pt 11: China is not stupid."
Obviously not.
"They know the Progressives want to swallow everybody up, including us AND THEM."
Exactly. The Regime sees competition for that honor and something that would hinder them from achieving its goals.
"It is up to YOU to decide if you want to fall for this Kool-Aid or not."
It ain't Kool-Aid when it is TRUE.
"I urge BigGovernment.com to take this article down."
And I urge it to remain UP. Because the nature of the Chinese regime needs examination.
No. Because Manson committed a crime along with his family, were indicted AS INDIVIDUALS IN A CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY for that crime, and were locked up. Even if many Falun Gong leaders ARE less than honorable, the bottom line is that the Chinese regime has been persecuting INDIVIDUALS for their RELIGIOUS BELIEFS without a corresponding CRIME to back it up with.
Which means very, VERY little, and still does not change the fact that the regime is a despotic, Communist, and expansionist power that does NOT like us.
Hopefully yes.
Pt 12: I can't believe you guys would sit there and defend Falungong. What's next? A free Charles Manson movement?
"Sorry, not this year. George Soros, Ted Kennedy and John Murtha are next in line. Maybe we can think about it in 2013."
Sincerely,
The Nobel Commitee
WW3 is over we lost. CHINA owns us thanks to COMMIE-CASHed UP surrendaCrats and Pelosian Toxins.
It's not over until the fat lady sings and she isn't even warming up. Sorry Father, failure is not an option here.
Thank you for taking on this important subject. I was hoping against hope that our news media was going to do some expose-type journalism during the Beijing Olympics but instead we got a PR promotional ad for China by all media. I understand that China wants to be a major global player but the US used to stand for something.
We used to require a review of Human Rights violations for our trading partners because trading with an unethical country was seen as unethical. But that ended when Clinton signed China up for Permanent Trading Status in the 90s and then we saw the influx of Chinese goods into our country at a rate that alarmed most of us.
Just last year I went into a Target and could not find one thing that wasn't made in China. And yet, China puts all these restrictions on products coming from other countries. I ask you, why are we bowing to the World's bully? Why have we got into bed with the world's largest and most draconian Communist country? Do we honestly think China cares a naught about the US?
This is NOT Mao that you're dealing with. Are you that stupid? Oh! I guess you are!
What we do is start producing our own oil and energy products and begin trading that to China to help create a more balanced partnership. We take a portion of the tax receipts that we get by producing these energy products and begin to pay down our debt with China. When we finally become debt neutral, we require a more balanced trading partnership with China or we take our trade elsewhere.
In the meantime, becoming energy self-sufficient produces jobs and a new economy that can include research and new technologies. Fairly standard economics.
No, but apparently you ARE.
Or perhaps you seem to have forgotten who the current Chinese leadership came of age under? MAO.
They might not be as OVERTLY murderous and some of them (like Deng) did time in prison, but that was more due to political wrangling than anything else. The fact of the matter is that just because they have ostentiably moved past Mao's bloody heritage and have adopted a new, enlightened mask doesn't mean they actually HAVE moved past Mao.
And if you have actually looked at the CONTINUITIES between Communist Chinese policy THEN and Communist Chinese policy NOW, you will see that far less is different than you think (who do you think started the aggressive policy of Sinoizing Tibet and Singkiang? The idea of a naval arms race in the Pacific? The infiltration of Mongolia by Chinese operatives? The aggression against India? Ring ANY bells, guv'ner?)
And did Mao commit the massacre in Tiananmen Square?
In short, they are just like the USSR after Stalin: a letting up of the outright slaughter coupled with some tactical reforms and less outright saber rattling, but when you remove the for-the-public cover and look down deep, it is the same rotten, bloodred, and despotic mess that it was when Mao proclaimed it in 1949.
Now, do you have any ACTUAL arguments, or are you just going to persist in being an absolute f*cking idiot?
Again, sorry guv'ner, but doubt it. The Chinese are on the verge of demographic catastrophy and the regime is starting to fray at the seams, and in a straight up match we have the superior firepower.
This ain't over.
"So, just because the CCP is sharp enough to not fall for Cap and Trade (but has pushed for the WEST to do so nevertheless), we are supposed to excuse the millions they have killed and the millions more they have enslaved? "
There you go again listening to Progressive lies. You know NOTHING about Chinese history and the history of Cap and Trade. I have stuff going as far back as 2003 on Cap and Trade and how the Progressives kept trying to push it on the international community. Do your research! It's CHINA that has been giving every excuse under the sun not to fall for it..
"So, just because the CCP is sharp enough to not fall for Cap and Trade (but has pushed for the WEST to do so nevertheless), we are supposed to excuse the millions they have killed and the millions more they have enslaved?"
Where is the proof on ANY of this? The fact is that China is the one who has been elusive all along from all the Cap and Trade movements. That's a FACT! See what Sunstein said
"Where is the proof on ANY of this?"
Which one? Well, for the Cap and Trade on the West, see their sterling endorsement of the IPCC's findings regarding WESTERN industry (they themselves, of course, were less enthusiastic when it came to the IPCC's suggestions for THEM).
As for the murders, well, LOOK PRETTY MUCH ANYWHERE YOU DESIRE, because you'll run into it eventually: eyewitness accounts, evidence compiled by various sources (including, ironically, the Soviets post-Schism), the actions the regime has taken, and their inhumane treatment of prisoners. And that is just on the things they did AFTER Mao.
"The fact is that China is the one who has been elusive all along from all the Cap and Trade movements. That's a FACT! See what Sunstein said"
And as a said, that is somewhat nice, but has a darker motive behind it (what with the arms race they are starting in the Pacific and elsewhere), and does jack squat to excuse their other actions.
If you indeed know China better than most Americans, I shiver to think how low the standards have fallen.
"There you go again listening to Progressive lies."
Progressive LIES? This is the VERY FIRST time I have heard the FACTUAL ACCOUNTS of Communist Chinese crimes being called "Progressive" or Leftist propaganda.
"You know NOTHING about Chinese history"
GHAAHAHAHAAHAAH!!!!!! Tell me knave, what do you know about Singkiang> Or Tibet? Or their "friendly issues" with the Vietnamese border? Or their use of partially artificial famine to try and mold the people into submission (a practice that did not die out with Mao, re Singkiang)? Or Tiananmen Square?
Pot kettle black.
"and the history of Cap and Trade."
Oh REALLY, knave? Do you even know when the CONCEPT was first suggested?
"I have stuff going as far back as 2003 on Cap and Trade and how the Progressives kept trying to push it on the international community."
I am not disputing that. The fact that you think that somehow changes much of anything only sows how ignorant you are.
"Do your research!"
Um,. perhaps you missed the point where I stated in great detail that I HAVE. And not merely by going on some CCP-approved guided tour. It is YOU who needs to do the homework.
"It's CHINA that has been giving every excuse under the sun not to fall for it.."
And yet they were all too happy demanding the WEST fall on it for the sake of nature, all while opening up a few dozen more coal power plants. That is naked hypocrisy, and shows how friendly China is with us.
They are the enemy. Make no mistake about that.
It's interesting to see how Copenhagen is being propagandized by China. Yes China is the great enlightened country.
I wonder, buszero, you do realize that it has been the US all along who has been reticent in approving things like the Kyoto Treaty and other Global Warming fear mongering legislation. And what was the result of the US refusing to enter into these treaties? We were smeared as the world's polluters and accused of standing in the way of the Global Warming alarmists purely for profit.
All good anti-capitalist propaganda that sounds suspiciously like–wait–communist agitation. Gee, funny how that works.
“THEY HAVE BEEN PUSHING TO HAVE US ADAPT IT EVEN WHILE EXCUSING THEMSELVES FROM DOING SO.
You’re actually describing the Progressive movement inside the United Nations. China’s the one that’s been making every excuse under the sun against it. Oh! But again, you overlook that cuz you love your kool-aid
“And even if THAT were true, their naval arms buildup and aid to North Korea and Russia should disqualify them as our "best friend" period.”
Ahh, the cold-war mentality again. Let’s just overlook and nevermind all those efforts to try to get North Korea to stop producing nukes.
NO COUNTRY "saved our butts from the Progressive movement.
Where the hell were YOU during Copenhagen? Were you even watching?
"It is still there. And who is fighting it? Sure as HELL isn't the PRC, but the common man on the street.”
Well, yeah! They’re not here on American soil, but they’ve sure fought them in an international arena. Again, you purposely overlook it because you love your Kool-Aid
Wow! Mindless bashing based on nothing but hearsay and bigotry.
Rather than America standing tall as a beacon of freedom in the world, we bow to China as we accumulate massive debts to them. Americans should feel ashamed for what we have become.
Of course it's Not Over…until all surrebdaCrats are in GItmo singing…morphing into SCHOOL LESSONS about what happenss to AzzzPlates and Maoists who try to steal FREEDOM. nov2 or after…bless you my son for you don't know father_moray. Frack Mao and death to Jihad. I just fish for Jihadjis. All power to Patriots.
Just hope for NO hyperINFLATION and default…ar you'll be out cutting firewood at night to avoid ObamsZ Energy Police.
"because if Mike Pence has things his way, we would NOT be valuing our sovereignty, Proof?”
Do you know who former special assistant to Mike Pence Jaqueline Watts is and what backs her? Again, do your research
"we would not be friends with China," Um, we AREN'T.
Not if you say so, because you want us under that U.N. umbrella
Of course it's Not Over…until all surrebdaCrats are in GItmo singing…morphing into SCHOOL LESSONS about what happenss to AzzzPlates and Maoists who try to steal FREEDOM. nov2 or after…bless you my son for you don't know father_moray. Frack Mao and death to Jihad. I just fish for Jihadjis. All power to Patriots.
Just hope for NO hyperINFLATION and default…ar you'll be out cutting firewood at night to avoid ObamsZ Energy Police.
But to your point, it would be interesting IF DEMS now held their CASH..all…but wishful thinking…on your part? Chinese cash flow from USA is megaEnormous daily. Chinese hackers have hacked all defense computers…all. Ceylons on Galactica.
"You’re actually describing the Progressive movement inside the United Nations."
Reading comprehension much? The Left has (at least usually) had the honesty of trying to foist that pile of tripe on ALL of us. The Chinese, on the other hand, have advocated that the West accept a limited form of it, but that they themselves should not do it at all.
"China’s the one that’s been making every excuse under the sun against it. Oh! But again, you overlook that cuz you love your kool-aid"
No I did not, arsehole. They have been making every excuse under the sun when it comes to THEMSELVES doing it, but as their endorsement of at least part of the IPCC's judgement (that relating to the West) shows, they are not so forthcoming for the REST of us.
"Ahh, the cold-war mentality again."
Absolutely. Because in case you haven't noticed, the regime's leaders are in a regime that LIVES off of large parts of the Cold War calculus, and their statements and actions show that CLEARLY.
"Let’s just overlook and nevermind all those efforts to try to get North Korea to stop producing nukes."
Which was a very, VERY rare break in gthe alliance between Beijing and Pyongyang, and they have indeed been undermining that very effort by continuing to trade with Pyongyang against the dictates of the very group you laud them as members of. Again, that is pure political calculation rather than a show of how great friends we are. In the end, China is not an ally, but just the opposite.
"Where the hell were YOU during Copenhagen?"
In California. Where I USUALLY am. In Orange County visiting my family. Your point?
"Were you even watching?"
Yes.
"Well, yeah! They’re not here on American soil, but they’ve sure fought them in an international arena."
Only halfheartedly and for their own less than noble reasons.
"Again, you purposely overlook it because you love your Kool-Aid"
Pot kettle black, knave.
Obviously, somebody hasn't been paying attention.
“"China would not admire us," They don't, save in a "worthy adversary that we must prove ourselves against and then destroy" way.””
Yeah. That’s why they bought our debt. Tell me, how is owning American debt a good deal for China whey they could have taken that $2 trillion, invested it into backing their own mortgages and made more money? Obama doesn’t even want to pay half of it back!
"and we would be already under the United Nations Charter," Um, to a large part we ARE.
Because of whom? The PROGRESSIVES! You need to know who your real enemy is!
“which I personally call "the Communist Manifesto made for an International Scale." And I suppose that the Communist tyranny from Beijing is any better?”
Gee! When have they ever attacked us?
"Do you know who former special assistant to Mike Pence Jaqueline Watts is and what backs her? Again, do your research"
Good, so you have been paying attention. Now, if only you could do the same to Chinese history….
"Not if you say so, because you want us under that U.N. umbrella"'
Um, idiot, have you even seen some of my comments regarding the UN? I think not.
You're d*mned right it's bad!
How persuasive!
I suppose you support the killsings at Waco, Columbine, and West Virginia Tech too!
America should not bow to China and I believe China does not want us to bow to them. We should fee ashamed. However, we prefer to act shamelessly.
Well, since I am a Staunch Agnostic, , I flatly REFUTE that.
'Nuff said! Those are your values
Al Gore is one person and Barack Obama's Presidency is a year old. I am talking about the previous decades. It's called history. The fact is the US has a history of opposing "Global Warming" tax and spend legislation and treaties because we viewed the science with skepticism. We all now know we were right because the science, in fact, is NOT settled.
As a result, our country was maligned as the great polluters for years. Even though the US hasn't increased CO2 (which is bogus to begin with) levels in years and in fact has reduced levels periodically. China on the other hand keeps increasing CO2 levels from anywhere from 4 percent to 8 percent per year.
Now China, in the 9th hour, comes along and wants to take credit for obstructing the bogus Copenhagen Treaty. It's not our fault that the US now has a President who has aligned himself with the ECO-left. Our history in this area is much different.
And the Taiwanese inherited THEIR political system from the Chiang clan, with all the rampant corruption, despotism, and other charming things involved. And the Baltic nations inherited And the Baltic Republics inherited many of THEIR governing institutions from the Communist era. Look how THEY have done.
Remember that the Taiwanese constitution was set up by Chiang AND EISENHOWER
Cool! Welcome!
Sir Andrew! You are drawing quite the crowd. You know what buszero……yeah yeah we agree on whatever brah.
Folks. I'd be getting as many assets into cash as you can ASAP. Get liquid before your head is under the March lows. Yes they may rally this bad boy again but you'll never survive the downdrafts.
Ah, lovely. I've been on a few trips there myself and to the USSR back in the day. And the rule of thumb is to NEVER, but NEVER believe you are getting the whole story on the guided tours. They'll show you the lovely picturesque city centers and maybe your quaint village or two, as well as a mildly troubled era they will hold up as a symbol of the work that is yet to be done.
Wrong! We drove from city to city. I've seen more of the countryside from that time than you have. I guarantee it. But that just means that they've come a long way.
Perhaps, but I highly, HIGHLY doubt it, given how Chinese "Capitalism" often works.
Then we should be agreeing to compete with them in a capitalistic arena rather than bashing them on a human rights one with a bunch of lies. Do your research on where you get your information from. It's all a bunch of lies from the Hillary camp.
"China has capitalist centers because without capitalism China would still be a third world nation. Capitalism is what put China on economic global level. HOWEVER, the vast majority of the Chinese people are little more than poorly kept welfare recipients who are used for labor and food production."
You have to start somewhere, and with the circumstances that they were given, I think they're doing fine, especially with 4 times the population of the United States
*sarcasm* … if you can see it
No, you are just a useful idiot, albeit a very minor one…True, but you are still wrong.
A useful idiot would only promote the way into global slavery
"No he didn't That is called REALPOLITIK, ladies and gentlemen."
Yeah, and nevermind all the capitalism and christianity that was spread throughout China as a result of that exchange
"Which is standard rhetoric that has more to do with "intrusions" regarding Taiwan, China, and the Spraty islands than with Global warming. Nothing to really see here."
Quite the contrary! It's what they're telling and broadcasting to their own people
"The world of Chinese hackers battling US central bankers et al? That is the crap that must end.
Soros owns Google. I don't believe we should be using the US govt to protect him either
"It ain't Kool-Aid when it is TRUE"
When you read your left-wing propaganda, I'd suggest you consider the source. I don't think Hillary and the Progressives are good for us
"No. Because Manson committed a crime along with his family, were indicted AS INDIVIDUALS IN A CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY for that crime, and were locked up. Even if many Falun Gong leaders ARE less than honorable, the bottom line is that the Chinese regime has been persecuting INDIVIDUALS for their RELIGIOUS BELIEFS without a corresponding CRIME to back it up with."
So, brainwashing people to jump of buildings is not a crime? I think that's a gray area.
can you understand that as Americans we recognize that people should be free to practice whatever religion they want without fear of prosecution? There is never any reason to prison people merely for practicing what effectively is a form of meditation as is Falungong.
It's NOT just medidation. It's brainwashing, just like the global-warming and worship the earth crap. Falungong makes people commit suicide
"Which means very, VERY little, and still does not change the fact that the regime is a despotic, Communist, and expansionist power that does NOT like us."
Ahh, no argument for that eh? What? You don't want to admit that you side with Sunstein too?
"And did Mao commit the massacre in Tiananmen Square?"
Do you really want to bring up Tiananmen? Tell me, if the infrastructure that feeds 4 times the population of the United States was SUDDENLY OVERTHROWN, what would have happened?
"Which one? Well, for the Cap and Trade on the West, see their sterling endorsement of the IPCC's findings regarding WESTERN industry (they themselves, of course, were less enthusiastic when it came to the IPCC's suggestions for THEM)."
It's called resistence to going under the UN umbrella. Ultimately, it's to save themselves and other countries from global slavery. If you can't see that, you're blind.
Oh okay. So that BBC documentary I saw that exposes how the peasants have their second child taken away from them or are forced into abortion at the ninth month was all kool-aid and a Hillary conspiracy? Hello, Hillary Clinton was practically bought and paid for by the Chinese during her husband's term as President.
Also, all the books by people who escaped China and told their stories about being held prisoner for just suggesting that they had rights are all apart of some great big conspiracy to make China look bad?
Or how about my friend, who is a European national who does business with China and who has seen and heard stories by trusted friends about how Chinese business people are some of the most corrupt and have no problem blackmailing their clients into favorable business practices for China. They are apart of this misinformation as well?
I think you need to really re-think your accusations of who is drinking the kool-aid? it sounds like you are saturated with the funny juice yourself.
"GHAAHAHAHAAHAAH!!!!!! Tell me knave, what do you know about Singkiang? Or Tibet? Or their "friendly issues" with the Vietnamese border? Or their use of partially artificial famine to try and mold the people into submission (a practice that did not die out with Mao, re Singkiang)? Or Tiananmen Square"
Wow! You want to bring up all that crap again? Ok. Let's go! How do you defend all the syringe attacks on innocent people in Xinjiang? Did you know that there's a nerve drug in those syringes? If that drug hits an organ or a limb, it'll render them useless. As for Tiananmen, if that infrastructure that supports 4 times the population of the United States was overthrown at that time, it would have been the French Revolution all over again.
I don't agree with this statement at all. I don't have time right now to refute it to the degree in which it requires but felt that silence would be tantamount to agreement or no argument. So suffice it to say, that for starters at least 90 percent of the "middle class" of China is a CCP member and 3/4 of the population of China are peasants with no rights whatsoever and you get where I am going with this.
"Which was a very, VERY rare break in gthe alliance between Beijing and Pyongyang, and they have indeed been undermining that very effort by continuing to trade with Pyongyang against the dictates of the very group you laud them as members of. Again, that is pure political calculation rather than a show of how great friends we are. In the end, China is not an ally, but just the opposite."
Again, you digress and don't really have any answers, but rather, you just make false accusations.
Um, idiot, have you even seen some of my comments regarding the UN? I think not.
Then stop defending Progressive ideas!
"I don't agree with this statement at all. I don't have time right now to refute it to the degree in which it requires but felt that silence would be tantamount to agreement or no argument. So suffice it to say, that for starters at least 90 percent of the "middle class" of China is a CCP member and 3/4 of the population of China are peasants with no rights whatsoever and you get where I am going with this."
Wrong again! Many of the people who became middle class were once peasants. There has never been a better cure for famine than capitalism. The opportunities are there for them. And you are completely not taking into account the fact that they have such a large population when you say that.
Really? The Kyoto Protocol of the 1997 is the 11th hour?
It's funny how you've spun all these accusations without acknowledging her 1995 speech in Beijing on "human rights"
"Pot kettle black, knave"
Then, consider your Hillary Clinton sources
"So that BBC documentary I saw that exposes how the peasants have their second child taken away from them or are forced into abortion at the ninth month was all kool-aid and a Hillary conspiracy? Hello, Hillary Clinton was practically bought and paid for by the Chinese during her husband's term as President. Also, all the books by people who escaped China and told their stories about being held prisoner for just suggesting that they had rights are all apart of some great big conspiracy to make China look bad?"
Question: Why do you listen to the BBC when they sound so much like Al-Arabiya? You might as well be watching CNN
You must be proud of yourself for being so well-versed in Cass Sunstein's arguments
Saying something and doing something are two different things. Pray tell, what did Hillary do that impeded trade with China based on Human Rights abuses? I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.
In her 1995 speech, those accusations of the girls being abused in such a manner are completely false. In fact, there ARE orphanages in China that will take such people in. You're oblivous to that because Hillary and Sunstein won't tell you that.
I lived in Europe for 10 years that's why. European BBC is much different than the garbage BBC America. Actually, I believe it was an ITV documentary or a Channel Four. The documentary aired for one evening–no repeats–and then was scrubbed from existence. Me and my husband managed to view it. It was quite enlightening.
For instance, CCP has set up a "council" in every village that basically spies on the residents and reports back to Beijing with the results. In this particular documentary a woman found herself pregnant with her second child–they could not afford to get a licesnce to have a second child so they had to keep the pregnancy quiet. The "council" found out about it and sent some people to this home to force the woman to abort the baby. (this was all on tape).
There was also a man named "The Detective" who went around China trying to find the children of the peasants who had their children stolen in a huge adoption racket. The children were sold to the "middle class" Chinese and foreigners for adoption. Of course the village people who had their children stolen were completely distraught. How would you feel? When Beijing was notified, they did little or nothing to help the peasant's plight. in fact, the village people got more harrassed. (one again all on tape).
"Yes. Exactly my point. 300 Million "middle class" in a country of 1.2 Billion leaving 800 million without money or rights.
They wouldn't even have that if it weren't or Deng working with Reagan. Granted, nothing is perfect, but it does show that the improvements and opportunities are there. I don't know what your expectations are, but I have relatives who live in the countryside there. A Nike factory went in there, and made this small town prosperous. That's how it works. It takes time, effort, and a lot or money. So, stop living your Disneyland fantasies to where you think that it can be done overnight. It doesn't work like that.
And you have proof that what she said was false? If you do show it.
However, once again, talking and doing are two different things. While she was talking about human rights abuses or whatever, her husband was lifting all restrictions on China based on human rights abuses.
Honestly, if this is the best you have, I think you should go back to your handlers and ask for better talking points.
Did the documentary also show the orphanages where they do try to accomodate such people and give them a better life? The efforts to accomodate everybody are there. They're not perfect, and neither is our own system.
I get that. I also get that in many cases the prosperity never makes it to the peasants and probably never will. Communism just works that way. Always has and always will. Sorry, sad but true.
Troll Alert! You and Turtler appear to be feeding an apologist for the Chinese government. This person is using up internet space and the brain cells of thinking Americans while throwing out specious arguments that could possibly net unsuspecting and unthinking readers. I say, let the Troll starve.
I think trolls are the ones who promote Hillary Clinton and Cass Sunstein's ideas.
Like I've said, there are orphanages where they do their best for such accomodations. They're not any better or worse than any of our orphanages here. In fact, many of them are housed in the newer and better buildings than many of ours. Ok. I've answered your question. Now you answer mine. Why is it that you believe a BBC report when you know that the liberal left fabricates stuff to make their points? Haven't you learned anything from the cap and trade scam? I'd suggest you read your handlers Hegel and Alinsky to see where your ideas REALLY come from.
Interesting five children in a room looking pretty for the cameras. That doesn't look like a propaganda picture at all.
What do you think of this orphanage?
http://chattahbox.com/world/2010/01/24/chinas-orp...
"If people want to defend that brainwashing called "Falungong," they might as well be supporting liberal global warming indoctrination too."
Easy. I AM. Because while I am not the largest fan of Falun Gong and am CERTAINLY not a warmer, I at least RECOGNIZE THEIR RIGHT TO SPEW THEIR TRIPE! Censorship should be limited to that material necessary for national safety or less explosive but still damaging material in a time of war. The decision by the CCP to oppress Falun Gong is sickening for the same reason their decision to crush Tibetian Buddhism is, even taking into account Tibetian Buddhism's long and fairly dark history. It is still despotism. And the mark of a true free society is the structural confidence to engage the kooks in the marketplace of ideas and defeat them there rather than bringing out the storm troopers.
"Falungong is just as dangerous, if not more."
Very, VERY disputable.
"People are preached to and made to jump off buildings to commit suicide."
Preaching is legal. And while any time of group talking about suicide is delving into fairly dark waters, even if the CCP DID have evidence of aggressive and abusive brainwashing, that would ONLY justify actions against the leaders and others involved with it. It would NOT justify the indiscriminate persecution we are seeing now.
"In the old days, we used to call those things "cults" in the United States."
And in case you haven't noticed, Cults are STILL LEGAL in the US. It is only when they dive off the deep end into abusive or outright treasonous actions (See the Branch Davidians) that crushing them is justified. Or perhaps we should lock all the Moonies up simply because they exist?
"Now we have a bunch of liberal Democrat appeasers even on BigGovernment who want to bash a capitalistic nation that will become the largest Christian nation by 2100."
Absolutely. Because they are STILL a Communist, authoritarian, and unfree nation with pretentious of grandeur. They DESERVE that bashing.
It's because much of it is fabricated on Progressive grounds to promote and defend slavery. If I'm not to assume that you are a conservative, then you must be a Progressive. Did you know that the Dalai Lama was a slave-owner? He owned THOUSANDS of them. That's something that you Progressives would love. Again, you need to go back to reading Hegel and Alinsky to see how it's all about manipulating the church and the poor. I know that you Progressives try to hide history so that the general public will learn the wrong things. But your history is there as much as you try to scrub it.
I said do not assume I am oblivious to what you were saying. That statement has nothing to do with my political bent. Please read what i have actually wrote before you attack what you think I believe.
And don't assume just because you attack progressives that i am going to agree with you. That is beneath this discussion.
I get that but sometimes the great brainwashed need a dose of what life looks like without the kool-aid.
"And don't assume just because you attack progressives that i am going to agree with you. That is beneath this discussion"
Oh! So, nevermind all the Nancy Pelosi astroturf and all the climate change fabrications? It's only real when it's based on a hatred of China, right?
I don't hate China. I love the Chinese people and think they deserve the world's indignation of what their Government does to them. We should join in solidarity with the Chinese people and help them when we can. they are hurting and probably feel that the world is ignoring their plight.
Then stop taking the Hillary/Pence/Sunstein side, and stop bashing them! They're not perfect, and neither are we. But you always have to look at the intent of the movements. They do more than their share against slavery (e.g. against the Dalai Lama and against UN Progressives).
It is obvious that you are nothing more than a mouthpiece who claims to be otherwise. I am done with you.
"Do you really want to bring up Tiananmen?"
Yes, DAMN WELL I want to.
"Tell me, if the infrastructure that feeds 4 times the population of the United States was SUDDENLY OVERTHROWN, what would have happened?"
Temporary chaos that might have lessened in time. Do you think every single thing in China would have collapsed if the regime did (which was NOT, by the way, what the protestors were aiming for, they wanted a LOOSENING of the EXISTING ONE). Farmers still would have farmed, workers would probably still have worked, and the cogs would have chaotically gone about their own way until a semblance of authority could be restored to the inland, which would have been fairly easy if the turnover had been peaceful or relatively so. And unlike Russia, the Chinese ecconomy at the time was fairly prosperous and growing, so the radical collapse we saw in post-Soviet Russia would almost certainly have not taken place.
But I suppose that the RISK of that taking place is too much, and all had to bow at the altar of the CCP just in case a struggle for liberty disrupted the existing order?
Such is the mantra of slaves.
How many times are you going to point to the mouthpieces of the liberal left, in this case, the source is LA Times? Now, granted, oftentimes, they don't know what to do with them. Mao kept telling Nixon, "We can give you women" because he had such a hard time feeding them. You are still not taking into account that having such a large population is a large problem and that nobody wants famine or a slave-state unless they are Progressives. They do what they can. Sometimes it's the wrong thing. But it does NOT mean that they are purposely trying to be vindictive of their own people or anybody else. China's intentions are far from it.
Why can't you just admit that you love your leftist Progressive Kool-Aid?
No, you F*cking IDIOT, I did NOT defend slavery on a mass scale. I could go on pretty damn near forever about the abuses of Tibetian Buddhism, the unworkable nature of the Tibetian theocracy in the bad old days, and Buddhism's inherent flaws in and of itself.
But that is not the reason I mentioned Tibet. I mentioned Tibet because it represented the unprovoked and ruthless invasion of a sovereign- if very, VERY imperfect- nation by an expanding imperialist power, followed by DECADES of savage repression and slaughter. And you completely gloss that over.
So, in your belief, the South owned Slaves prior to and during the Civil War. So, it would be justifiable to go in, kill the slave owners, kill the SLAVES, kill those who had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITHT HE SLAVE TRADE, forcibly resettle not only the survivors, but also common people from the NORTH against their will in the newly conquered South, all while pillaging, raping, and generally acting like petty monsters. And god help them if they actually ROSE UP against such horrific treatment (and my hatred of the CSA is well known on these forums, but given those circumstances, I could NOT blame them for rising up again).
If any of your accusations about the intents of KILLING were true, then the Dalai Lama would be long dead. Again, 'nuff said.
"It's called resistence to going under the UN umbrella."
For themselves but not for us, which you seem to think is the great lure of China.
"Ultimately, it's to save themselves and other "countries from global slavery."
HAH! "Global Slavery", all while they keep hundreds of thousands of their own people (NEVER MIND the Tibetians, the Indians, and the Uighers) in slavery for the most inoffensive of reasons? I am NO fan of the IPCC, but at least they are probably not going to KILL us if we dare criticize them.
" If you can't see that, you're blind."
And if you can't see the true natiure of the CCP, you are worse: WILLFULLY blind, and talkative to boot.
"How do you defend all the syringe attacks on innocent people in Xinjiang?"
The same way any honorable person would defend the brutal massacre of thousands of unarmed protesters and ethnic cleansing on a national scale: I. DON'T.
Wonderful. But who STARTED the violence there? Was it the syringe weilding maniacs who only came to prominance within the last decade, or the PLA when it marched into Singkiang in Ninteen FORTYNINE? And proceeded to violently attempt to erase the Uigher identity from the map. I do not like the Islamist bent of the insurgency, nor their tactics, but the Communist Chinese started this war by their unprovoked aggression.
Andthe protestors were not ASKING for the French Revolution, they were ASKING for reform in the system as it was. Ironically, the actions of the CCP in that have probably made a French Revolution MORE LIKELY than less by shutting off the pressure release of peaceful dissent. That, and it's not like the entire country would shut down.
So, we can agree that keeping up the humanitarian pressure on Beijing is good?
One of those is not like the others.
Waco yes, because the Branch Davidians were engaged in explicit acts of treason and preparing for armed revolt, to say nothing of their abuses of their own members. They were a clear and present danger, and while the standoff was horrifically botched, that they needed to GO can hardly be disputed.
And as for the others, what do the actions of a few deranged individuals have to do with the illegal persecution of an entire religion/philosophy, even in abscence of an actual CRIME?
Yes they are, and I am damn proud of them.
Let's see, your idea is to overthrow the infrastructure, people would still be working to TRUCK much o the grains and rice into the rural areas to keep them from starving? Yes, I went there in 1987 too. So, let's see, Wang Dan went from leading that "Pro-Democracy" movement only to be taken in by Harvard to create yet another false science much like how Al Gore and Barack Obama bred their ideas. Now, THAT is highly respectable!
""Global Slavery", all while they keep hundreds of thousands of their own people (NEVER MIND the Tibetians, the Indians, and the Uighers) in slavery for the most inoffensive of reasons?"
You must be oblivious to what Islam actually is."
Again, your lack of research wields bad assumptions. First of all, the syringe attacks are added on top of coffee shop bus bombings. Such is the way of Islam. I know that you like to appease Islam by thinking that it was THEIR state that was taken over, but that's another bad assumption. Did you know that the Great Wall extends all the way into that territory? Why? It's because that terrotory had long been guarded and defended by CHINA. Prosperity in any form at that time was brought about by trading along the silk road. I know that you're oblivous to all this because you only believe what Cass Sunstein tells you, but your way of thinking is dangerous.
I think that all countries have a right to sovereignty rather than to go under the United Nations Charter.
So, a movement that tells people to jump off of buildings is not deranged?
Then you're obviously naive about the objective of Islam.
It may well be, but as I stated before, we cannot criminalize throught, and as long as there is nothing overtly abusive and cloistered regarding it, legally our hands our tied.
That is the price of freedom.
The premise is this: There's a reason for people to consider the source. When you find yourself having to defend Islam and Cass Sunstein, you know something's wrong. Take a step back and look at the bigger picture, and you'll see what's right.
I already TALKED about Waco, and the others were not cases of Government oppression but of isolated nuts acting by themselves who chose to kill many innocent people. Compare THAT to institutionalized political, religious, and ethnical oppression that has already racked up the largest body count of a single regime in world history.
And Ike's interference was not worth the paper it was written on. He largely let Chiang have a free hand, and he predictably ran Taiwan into the ground. It was primarily though later reforms that Taiwan has gotten to where it is now.
I disagree. If it were not for the exceedingly exploitive hand the CCP has played (artificially depressing the cost of Chinese labor more than it is naturally- which is a fair amount in and of itself- for one), I would agree, but as it is, I cannot.
So, the fact that they were duped into buying $2 Trillion of American debt where Obama won't even pay back $1 Trillion of it is not exploitive? We're printing money and de-valuing our dollar like it's going out of style and causing more damage than anything that they're doing, that's for sure. So, my question is this, why are you acting like a liberal Democrat and focusing on something that is only 10% or so as bad as something that your Progressives are doing? As far as I can see, they're only printing as much money as to keep up with the rest of the world that's doing the same thing. In fact, America is printing more. It's been at 6.8 RMB to the dollar or a long time, but I can remember when it was at a solid 8.7 RMB to the dollar.
That's true. You know why? Do you know what the star on the Taiwanese flag stands for? "Progress!" Yes! Chiang was a Progressive. But it was through the sheer will of the Taiwanese people to make money on top of money. But they needed a good vehicle to do it. That's why it was good that Eisenhower at least gave them a good framework and basis inside their Constitution to do so.
So, again, you don't think that movements that makes people jumpo off of buildings and bomb coffee shops and busses in order to achieve a slave state are oppressive? That's what you're defending against a society that is proven itself within the last 25+ years to have conservative principles. It's true, they're not perfect. But they are more fundamentally conservative than most of Europe and even the United States under Barack Obama.
buszero, can you understand that as Americans we recognize that people should be free to practice whatever religion they want without fear of prosecution? There is never any reason to prison people merely for practicing what effectively is a form of meditation as is Falungong.
China has capitalist centers because without capitalism China would still be a third world nation. Capitalism is what put China on economic global level. HOWEVER, the vast majority of the Chinese are little more than poorly kept welfare recipients who are used for labor and food production.
"you do realize that it has been the US all along who has been reticent in approving things like the Kyoto Treaty and other Global Warming fear mongering legislation. And what was the result of the US refusing to enter into these treaties?"
Really? Like Al Gore and Barack Obama? The truth is that it's the Progressives on one side, and everybody who respects sovereignty on the other.
"Again, you digress and don't really have any answers, but rather, you just make false accusations."
Digress and don't have any answers? FALSE ACCUSATIONS?
China's perfidy in regard to the IPCC and ESPECIALLY North Korea are quite well documented. I don't know HOW, in your oh-so-exhuastive search of documents regarding China and the IPCC tthat you somehow managed to miss the Chinese endorsement of a good portion of the IPCC's suggestions regarding the WEST, but themselves opted out of even considering its suggestion regarding THEMSELVES.
And as for North Korea, if you EVER bothered to examine their statements on the matter and the analysis of more than a few groups (including the Russians, the Vietnamese, and stragnely the North Koreans themselves regarding imports/exports), the depth of China's double dealing becomes VERY evident.
So perhaps it is YOU who is digressing because you don't have any answers, and it is YOU who are making false accusations.
"So, brainwashing people to jump of buildings is not a crime?"
Define "brainwashing." And if it is not clear and obvious brainwashing (see "heavy use of drugs and/or clear psychological torture), than no, for better or worse.
"I think that's a gray area."
And I think you have no idea on the concepts a real justice system operates on.
But let's say you are right, and that Falun Gong are brainwashing people to jump off buildings and that it iS a crime.
HOW DOES THIS JUSTIFY THE ARREST OF GAO ZHISHENG? What laws has he broken? What crime as he committed? Who has he talked of the side of a building?
In your eagerness to condemn the persecuted, you forget simple integrity.
"It's NOT just medidation. It's brainwashing, just like the global-warming and worship the earth crap."
Alright, let's assume your right. That DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT IT IS STILL LEGAL.
"Falungong makes people commit suicide"
As does modern life. And marraige. And drug abuse. And mental illness. And (ironically) the CCP (see interparty issues where the loosing party was given the choice of suicide or having pretty much anyone who knew him get dragged under with him). And virtually anything else you could care to name.
We can hardly ban everything that makes people kill themselves. The first things we would have to eliminate would be the brain and human nature. And once again your case falls apart.
"Again, you digress and don't really have any answers, but rather, you just make false accusations."
Once again, you are dead wrong.
I am still amazed that in your oh-so-exhaustive search of IPCC records regarding China, you have somehow overlooked the Chinese endorsement of several of the IPCC's suggestions for the WEST, even as they denied any consideration whatsoever of the IPCC's suggestions for THEM. Nevertheless, just because you do not address it does not mean it is so, and it has been confirmed and reported by everyone from the US Federal government to the EU to the IPCC to the CHINESE THEMSELVES. Which shows how great they are as "allies."
And as for North Korea, the evidence is even GREATER. Groups as far apart as ourselves to the Russians to Pyongyang have confirmed Chinese exports into North Korea, and the CCP has made more than a few statements tactly admitting as such.
So it is YOU who is digressing but doesn't really have answers, and it is YOU who is making false accusations.
Shape up or get off the site.
"Then, consider your Hillary Clinton sources"
I will. And my Sunstein sources. And my Climate Audit sources. And my "Not evil just Wrong" sources. And my Chinese sources, and any other source I can find.
I am entirely confident they shall prove my point. After all, they already have several times over.
"Um, NO BLOODY KIDDING!"
Yeah! But it's ok when it happens in Columbine, Waco, and West Virginia Tech. Right?
"Then stop defending Progressive ideas!"
So, hostility towards a despotic Communist regime that is oppressing the very Christians you laud (and pretty much everyone ELSE) and has been saber rattling against us and our allies, has been engaged in a naval arms race, and has been double dealing witht the North Koreans is now a PROGRESSIVE IDEA?
And so is the idea of innocent until proven guilty and operating within the concrete bounds of the law?
"So, again, you don't think that movements that makes people jumpo off of buildings"
Again, if it cannot be directly tied to them, no.
"and bomb coffee shops and busses"
Proof?
"in order to achieve a slave state are oppressive?"
They can very well be. But if they operate within legal means (say, keep everything save the bombings part), than they are legal and within the right of individual citizens to associate freely. We can't merely outlaw groups or speech because we disagree withsaid things.
"That's what you're defending against a society that is proven itself within the last 25+ years to have conservative principles."
So, the use of guilt before innocence, guilt by association, and mass arrests without an actual CRIME or even a CHARGE are "Conservative Principles?" Perhaps BISMARCKEAN Conservative principles, but those are the same that led the Kaiserreich to plunge Europe into WWI, and they are incompatible with a truly CONSERVATIVE Free society.
"That's why it was good that Eisenhower at least gave them a good framework and basis inside their Constitution to do so. "
Oh puhleaze. The ROC's constitution was an absolute joke. Ike's intervention did little more than give Chiang a rubber stamp to continue what he was doing before he resumed ignoring Taiwan entirely. It was only by the dedicated efforts of the dissenters against the KMT dictatorship that that dictatorship was broken and a free, Capitalist Taiwan emerged.
Gao Zhisheng's law office failed to register with local justice authorities after it moved to a new office. Now, why didn't your liberal Democrat sources tell you that? There are laws that must be followed. Just like your 1949 argument. Your sources tell you one thing to make you concentrate on it, but leave out the real pertinent facts. Now, again, why did you choose to concentrate on the year 1949 when all the business along the route of the Silk Road had been defended by China for centuries? Why?
"A useful idiot would only promote the way into global slavery"
And pray what do you think you are doing by excusing the crimes of the Communist regime? Promoting PEACE ON EARTH?
Like I said, Christianity spread IN SPITE of the CCP's actions than because of it, and Chinese "capitalism" is crony capitalism at its very worst, with the Chinese people being denied a fair market value for their labor or the true freedom of oppertunity that exists in a REAL Capitalist nation.
"Quite the contrary! It's what they're telling and broadcasting to their own people"
Um, how is that contrary? Half of the empty rhetoric despotisms use is on their own people (case in point: Soviet Russia).
"Soros owns Google. I don't believe we should be using the US govt to protect him either"
I believe the sooner Soros goes to hell, the better the world shall be, but that STILL does not change the fact that illegal cyberattacks are illegal.
When you have learned about the forced deportation of ethnic Han Chinese to the fronteir to help "Sinofy" Singkian and Tibet- hell, even the Germans could claim that their "settlers" came willingly looking for oppertunity-, and the rampant poltiical oppression, and the history of agression by the PRC, and the nigh-uncontrollable corruption, and countless other crimes the CCP has committed both against its own people and others, yes, it IS very persuasive.
"Highly disputable. Sun Yat Sen and the other early crackpots of the KMT likely were (given their collectivist intents and their general relations with the USSR), but it is ludicrously hard to discern what ideology motivated Chiang (particularly after he took power) outside of taking power and holding it."
Again, your lack of knowledge of what happened in history over there is your downfall. Did you know that the Federal Reserve was PROGRESSIVE idea that allows them to print as much currency as they would like? Likewise, Chiang once printed so much money, that schoolteachers were afraid to go teach in the morning because the amount of money for them to buy rice in the daytime would be different than the amount at night on the same day.
"Which was NOT the KMT dictatorship, as you would know if you know how Chiang's friends from the mainland operated."
Yes. I know. My family ran away from Mao and went over to Taiwan with Chiang. I know A LOT better than YOU do.
"America should not bow to China and I believe China does not want us to bow to them."
Sadly, the CCP does not agree with you.
"We should feel ashamed."
How so? We actually insist that the CCP play FAIR and stop oppressing its people? We get sick of Chinese perfidy on the world stage? Why should we "feel ashamed?"
"Oh puhleaze. The ROC's constitution was an absolute joke. Ike's intervention did little more than give Chiang a rubber stamp to continue what he was doing before he resumed ignoring Taiwan entirely. It was only by the dedicated efforts of the dissenters against the KMT dictatorship that that dictatorship was broken and a free, Capitalist Taiwan emerged."
Oh good! Nice to see you're finally starting to get away from your Progressive ideas
"And pray what do you think you are doing by excusing the crimes of the Communist regime?"
It's because I'm not a bigot who falls for anything anyone tells me about "Communists" who turn a blind eye to a growth of a half million Christians a year inside their own borders
"As far as I'm concerned, they went for ideas that they know the Progressives would be against. It's been a bunch of excuses"
And… how does that mesh with their attempt to have US fall on the IPCC's sword?
"Has the tactic been successful in keeping sovereignty?"
No. The sovereignty of the people- the sovereignty that REALLY matters and from which the others (particularly national sovereignty) derrive- of China has been usurped, and has been for millenia. Just not by the UN, but by something that is if anything even worse.
"I think anyone who would defend Progressive Sunstein/Hillary/Obama/Gore ideas like you do should be the one to get off conservative sites and go back to Move-On where you belong."
A broken clock is right once a day (or twise, for analog ones), and I defend them when I have no choice but to do so. And when they are RIGHT regarding the perfidy of China, they are RIGHT. I cannot help that fact. Now, do you have any actual POINTS?
"Like I said, Christianity spread IN SPITE of the CCP's actions than because of it"
Not true. There WAS NO growth of Christianity before Deng. In fact, the number of Christians had gone down
Chinese "capitalism" is crony capitalism at its very worst, with the Chinese people being denied a fair market value for their labor or the true freedom of oppertunity that exists in a REAL Capitalist nation.
Then why are they doing better than us in terms of growth?
"Pssh! I rest my case"
Oh, so god forbid I do what any HONEST scholar regardless of political bent would do and look at ALL the sources and evaluate them on their merit, Ja?
You are a real idiot.
"And if you have actually looked at the CONTINUITIES between Communist Chinese policy THEN and Communist Chinese policy NOW, you will see that far less is different than you think (who do you think started the aggressive policy of Sinoizing Tibet and Singkiang?"
Did you know that the Dalai Lama owned THOUSANDS of slaves? Again, you defend slavery on a mass-scale
I believe the sooner Soros goes to hell, the better the world shall be, but that STILL does not change the fact that illegal cyberattacks are illegal.
Good! We finally agree on something (Soros), now stop pushing his ideas! Besides, it's not the Chinese gov't that's hacking Google. They're rogue hackers who are fighting the very Progressive rhetoric that you defend.
"Which is why I DON'T merely rely on the Clintonistas or the Left to supply my sources. Indeed, many of my sources come from the oh-so-Conservative CHINESE REGIME ITSELF, and yet more come from other anti-Warming sources, like Climate Audit and Ban the IPCC.
And there aren't people who just have a pure hatred for China in there either?
"That DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT IT IS STILL LEGAL."
Legal under which law? Last time I checked, there was a crackdown in China on Falungong because it's illegal there.
"Oh good! Nice to see you're finally starting to get away from your Progressive ideas"
Do you have reading comprehension issues? I haven't moved TOWARDS or AWAY "Progressive ideals" since the time I responded to your outrageous falsehoods. I have known what I know and believed what I believed for YEARS before this conversation was but a single line on the comment box on your screen. If you had actually been paying attention, you would know that.
"No. The sovereignty of the people- the sovereignty that REALLY matters and from which the others (particularly national sovereignty) derrive- of China has been usurped, and has been for millenia. Just not by the UN, but by something that is if anything even worse… A broken clock is right once a day (or twise, for analog ones), and I defend them when I have no choice but to do so. And when they are RIGHT regarding the perfidy of China, they are RIGHT. I cannot help that fact. Now, do you have any actual POINTS?"
why don't you just admit that you think they're right because their lies are consistent with your bigotry?
"You are a real idiot."
And you're a real bigot when you can't even look at the true facts, but concentrate on what Hillary and Sunstein tell you to concentrate on just to support hate. Again, why do you choose to concentrate on the year 1949 when China it's been Chinese terrotory for centuries?
"So, hostility towards a despotic Communist regime that is oppressing the very Christians you laud (and pretty much everyone ELSE) and has been saber rattling against us and our allies"
I guess you can call them oppressive if you choose to overlook the fact that there is a huge growth of Christians every year. Again, you digress
"has been saber rattling against us and our allies, has been engaged in a naval arms race, and has been double dealing witht the North Koreans is now a PROGRESSIVE IDEA?"
why is it that only the United States can practice the "peace through strength" principle?" Oh yes! You're a bigot! Cuz they're communist!
"No, they are not even CLOSE to being perfect. Even on the scale of the rest of the world. I repeat, they are a tyrannical Communist oligarchy that is complict in genocide, ethnic cleansing, and (ironically) the exploitation of the common person (including the Christians you seem to think make teh PRC a Conservative nation).
Gee! That's a REAL good way of defending a bunch of terrorists who make syringe attacks, bomb coffee shops and busses. Why do you purposely overlook that? Oh yeah! You're a bigot!
"I haven't moved TOWARDS or AWAY "Progressive ideals" since the time I responded to your outrageous falsehoods"
Outrageous falsehoods? You're the one promoting lies to promote bigotry, and I'm the one pumping out falsehoods?
Yes. Exactly my point. 300 Million "middle class" in a country of 1.2 Billion leaving 800 million without money or rights. Also, is the "middle class" who almost all uniformly from the CCP really that free? no not really considering that China censors almost all but homegrown media.
Your problem is that you are completely oblivious to the plan that Deng laid out. Prosperity had to start somewhere. The only models (and large sums of money) of their own (in the Chinese-speaking world) were from Hong Kong, Singapore, and Taiwan at the time. So, he started modeling everything after Hong Kong. From there, many of the poor from the countryside went into the large cities. That's why, when you go to the large cities there, many of the people inside places like Beijing are not actually from there. From the headquarters in these large cities, spreaded the factories outward into the smaller and more rural areas. That was the plan. It was successful to a large degree. It can't get to everybody, but it was a great effort that I would say is working to a great extent.
Please do not assume I am oblivious to anything. Thank you. I am fully aware how China is using Capitalist centers to fund the country. They had no choice. Without capitalism China would still be a third world country. I get this.
Okay, what are your views on China's human rights record?
Then consider the source and take into account all its other fabrications. They are pro's at this.
Again, your lack of research wields bad assumptions. First of all, the syringe attacks are added on top of coffee shop bus bombings. Such is the way of Islam. I know that you like to appease Islam by thinking that it was THEIR state that was taken over, but that's another bad assumption. Did you know that the Great Wall extends all the way into that territory? Why? It's because that terrotory had long been guarded and defended by CHINA. Prosperity in any form at that time was brought about by trading along the silk road. I know that you're oblivous to all this because you only believe what Cass Sunstein tells you, but your way of thinking is dangerous.
Oh, I know PERFECTLY well about the objectives of the Islamists and how they behave. It doesn't change the fact that ultimately, any society that relies upon religion alone for enlightenment without the underlying ideology of liberty and equality of oppertunity for all is doomed. The Christian church in China had done pathetically little to halt Beijing's misconduct, as we can only expect when we place the state above the individual. And overt signs of reform mean nothing without the underlying reform.
To trust the PRC simply because many of its people are Christian (often against the demands of their government) is foolish.
"Ahh, no argument for that eh?"
Yes, I choose not to contest that.
"What? You don't want to admit that you side with Sunstein too?"
Oh, I accept that much. What I do NOT accept is that this somehow makes the bloodied tyranny in Bejing an angelic champion of justice. A point you have either not contested or have not contested effectively or with honor (as is evident from your personal attacks and your ironically hypocritical accusations withou actually ADDRESSING the points I bring up).
" It's true, they're not perfect."
No, they are not even CLOSE to being perfect. Even on the scale of the rest of the world. I repeat, they are a tyrannical Communist oligarchy that is complict in genocide, ethnic cleansing, and (ironically) the exploitation of the common person (including the Christians you seem to think make teh PRC a Conservative nation).
"But they are more fundamentally conservative than most of Europe and even the United States under Barack Obama."
Again, MASSIVE, Omniscient government that has destroyed the rigths of its civilians is CONSERVATIVE?
Sorry, I'll stick with Europe and America. Not because I don't know they are bad off, but because at the very least I will not face a firing squad followed by illegal organ harvesting for attending a protest.
"That's true. You know why? Do you know what the star on the Taiwanese flag stands for? "Progress!"
Not likely. The most common interpretation (as derrived from the defacto KMT bible, the Princples of Sun Yat Sen), is that it represents Democracy and Equality.
"Yes! Chiang was a Progressive."
Highly disputable. Sun Yat Sen and the other early crackpots of the KMT likely were (given their collectivist intents and their general relations with the USSR), but it is ludicrously hard to discern what ideology motivated Chiang (particularly after he took power) outside of taking power and holding it.
"But it was through the sheer will of the Taiwanese people to make money on top of money. But they needed a good vehicle to do it. "
Which was NOT the KMT dictatorship, as you would know if you know how Chiang's friends from the mainland operated.
"When you read your left-wing propaganda, I'd suggest you consider the source. I don't think Hillary and the Progressives are good for us"
Which is why I DON'T merely rely on the Clintonistas or the Left to supply my sources. Indeed, many of my sources come from the oh-so-Conservative CHINESE REGIME ITSELF, and yet more come from other anti-Warming sources, like Climate Audit and Ban the IPCC.
As far as I'm concerned, they went for ideas that they know the Progressives would be against. It's been a bunch of excuses Has the tactic been successful in keeping sovereignty? Just answer that! I think anyone who would defend Progressive Sunstein/Hillary/Obama/Gore ideas like you do should be the one to get off conservative sites and go back to Move-On where you belong.
"I will. And my Sunstein sources."
Pssh! I rest my case
"Um, how is that contrary? Half of the empty rhetoric despotisms use is on their own people (case in point: Soviet Russia)."
When they want to make it known what is a GOOD thing (sovereignty) and what is NOT (going under the UN umbrella), THAT is what they are showing their values to their people to be. The only empty rhetoric here is that there are "human rights violations"
Okay Turtler,
Let''s see if we can have a real discussion.
"Sadly, the CCP does not agree with you."
Did you see Obama bow to the Hu Jintao? Did you see him bow to the Emperor of Japan? The Saudi King? Was there an outcry from China?
What evidence do you have to support your statement?
We should feel ashamed in that we (as sensible says) have accumulated massive debt to the Chinese. Now we are blaming the creditor. Where is our self respect and responsibility?
"We actually insist that the CCP play FAIR and stop oppressing its people?"
Who is the WE that you are referring to? YOU speak for everyone?
Who defines FAIR? YOU?
Whe defines OPPRESSING? YOU?
I hear one sided propaganda written by people motivated to make a name for themselves by saying anything that sells. Some may be wel intentioned, but I have personal dealings with UN people and even an executive level HRW person. They are untrustworthy liars in their personal life and I have no doubt that they will say anything for personal gain.
I watched an interview last year with Hu Jintao where the reporter congratulated Hu Jintao for China's success. Hu Jintao responded by saying that there should be no congratulations until the 800 Million Chinese that live in the rural poor areas are also brought up to a higher level of living. I thought that was a pretty cool response. Kind of like gracefully turning down a Nobel Prize for doing nothing!
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Hearsay is testimony overheard by a third party. This is what is referred to as "direct testimony". So your argument, on its face, is incorrect.
If you are a Chinese national, you would know nothing of justice and its proper terms. For that I apologize.
Federal Rules of Evidence, which generally defines hearsay as a "statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted."
I am a lawyer. You apparently are not.
I am an American that has traveled extensively to Xinjiang and Tibet. I have studied it up close and personal for nearly three decades. I do not know your background.
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