A post entitled “Can Alinsky’s Tactics Work on the Right? Should They?” by Christian Hartsock in Big Journalism, along with local battles between ultra- conservatives and other conservatives over using Alinsky’s tactics to further the cause, brings to light that the matter of “factioning” (breaking apart into rival groups) has become a concern.

As an engaged Republican on the inside of politics for more than a decade now, I have seen pro-life activists faction and thus kill good bills for the sake of credit. I have seen primary candidates lie about other candidates in order to win races they should not have won. I have seen one person’s opinion smack down another conservative’s attempt to do right over side issues irrelevant to the goal. This never produces real winners, and forces duplication of efforts for conservatives fighting the good fight.
The good news is that if conservatives are clashing, that means that the natural law of division is engaging, because there are enough conservatives to fight over how to defeat the left. That is a convenience reserved only for groups that are strong, and winning.
The bad news is that total division at this time would be tragic, maybe even fatal. The right is arguing over whether James O’Keefe’s acting as a pimp to enter ACORN offices to uncover arguably illegal activity was wrong. It seems to me that the show staged by O’Keefe and Hannah Giles was precisely that…staged. Would the ultra-conservative right rebuke a movie or play about the Passion because of the presence of a prostitute? The people in the movie are actors, after all. If we impose the standard of never “acting” to accomplish our goals, we tie our own hands as we proceed in this political battle for our republic. We need to maintain decency, absolutely. If we impose all of our values, clear down to clothing style, on everyone who labels himself a conservative, we lose our size and might. More importantly, we lose our ability to mentor those who aren’t as far along in the establishment of their whole philosophical underpinning.
As we all find our way in this new political era, and do the very best we can to expose leftist journalists, reveal the truth, and to expose corruption, let’s make a commitment to stand united over the basic conservative values we share. If we do not, then we demolish ourselves.
Personal conversations about tactical error, or immaturity, or strategic concerns can be productive and necessary. Publicly attacking those who are fighting for the same values you are is divisive, simplistic, and ultimately destructive.

In the era of citizen journalism, new media, and social media, the discipline of conservatives to remain cohesive will be tested as never before. Liberals know when to “quietly wait to pounce on their piece of pie, and vote as a pack” and they do. That is why they win. Liberals cannot win in the war of ideas because their ideas are not inherently truthful (if you believe in absolute truth)—to successfully deliver the liberal message, you have to group benefits for each segment of your electorate: the pro-choicers, big labor, big government, the anti-war, the class-warfare fear mongers, the moral relativists, the race baiters, and even the banking profiteers all know when to sit down and shut up and wait their turn to get their piece of the pie.
Labor bosses know that many of their members are pro-gun, pro-life, and anti-illegal immigration, and yet they shut them right up when labor issues are on the table. Their papers spend a page or two dogging business and “anti-labor” efforts, and four or five pages on hunting, fishing, and gun-related content. One knows that big labor bosses who dream of a socialist world do not want guns in the hands of their rank and file. They tolerate it, though, so they can garner trust and continue to gain ground. This is the psychology of effective politics.
The trouble is that their issues are about money and pursuit of gain, and conservative issues are based on morality, which requires an understanding of absolute truth, so those of us who believe we have “achieved” an understanding of absolute truth have trouble reconciling our own silence on sin in our ranks.
Perhaps patience and grace can come first, and we can resign ourselves to person-to-person, gentle confrontation, or church-based confrontation if something absolutely needs to be resolved.
If, armed with the new-journalism and new communication tools of this exciting new era, we who agree on the basic tenets of conservatism keep our fire trained on the enemy, and not on one another, we might actually change the world.






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80 Comments
Well said.
I don't want gentle confrontation! How bout Impeace Louise Slaughter for this talk of the Slaughter rule. How bout we impeach Obama?? The kind of intellectual aloofness is exactly what Giles and O'Keefe (and frankly, Mr. Breitbart) are excited to see. We have nothing to fear but fear itself. And we will not make any friends with the rabid left by softening our tactics. Only aggressive and hard hitting political strategies will garner my support.
Compared to 2006 and 2008, conservatives are moving with synchrony of a well-trained Roman legion right now, locking shields and throwing spears at the exact same time. To carry military analogy further, right now they've drawn their gladii and are busy stabbing the disoriented, bickering Democrats in their political bellies.
Dr. Loudon, first please accept my best wishes for your TPM activities in St. Louis. What I hope happens in the coning months is everyone in this movement stays focused on the essential elements of this movement which I believe are adherence to our Constitution and limited government. We need to work together in weeding out the progressives on both sides of the aisle…
Beyond that I'm sure there will be some differences..
It seems to me that people who dislike what Hannah and James did should also universally condemn undercover work of any sort. Do they have similar feelings about police officers posing as teenage girls online to lure in sex predators? It's the same thing.
I always thought the tea party movement was to be a force-multiplier for the conservative movement, instilling and re-enforcing the principles that made this nation exceptional. This is no time to get squeamish about tactics and techniques. Hammer the the progressives, hit them where they live and breathe and don't let up. Let them taste the irony, the biiter pill of their own medicine.
I'd like to see Conservatives get off their RINO horse for a little while. It's fine to criticize someone who supports a stupid or wasteful policy, but to immediately brand someone a fake Republican the first time they do something you don't like is childish (and counter-productive). Conservatives are only 40% of the vote, and that's including ones who would be called RINOs. So let's take a couple weeks off from the name-calling and PLEASE stop the Democrats from train-wrecking our economy.
Yadda yadda yadda, compromise to win, etc. This is not helpful. The very underpinnings the conservative resurgence are birthed out of a reaction to politicians who do just that. They sell out their principles and lie to various factions in order to get their support. I refuse to believe that we cannot have an open and honest government; that deceit must be involved to garner a large enough base of support to win. An anti-incumbent mood has been sweeping the country for the last few years, if the author hasn't noticed. Congress has an approval rating of around 20% because of inside the beltway people following exactly these lines of thinking, and anget at Washington D.C. is at an all time high. What we need is to present a bold, clear, consistent conservative message and stick to it. Will there be people who don't agree with all of it? Yes, but they will vote for it anyway because it is closer to what they believe than the liberal plan for America. If anything, we should have learned by now from both the Bush and Obama administrations that the only thing voters won't forgive is dishonesty, corruption, and inside baseball.
So if I were to call Dr. Gina Loudon a RINO…
Methods and tactics matter.
Psalm 31:11 Because of all my adversaries, I have become a reproach, Especially to my neighbors, And an object of dread to my acquaintances; Those who see me in the street flee from me.
I'd pull out what little is left of my hair.
Sorry, not seeing all the hate. Besides, I am too busy scrappin with lefty, wacko, lib socialist to care about my fellow conservatives right now. If we follow conservative principles than everything else will fall into place. Limited government, less taxes and leave me alone seem to be our battle cry. If we can agree on this, than everything will be fine. If you are a conservative who doesn't believe in these core values than you are probably a RHINO and we don't need you anyhow.
Of course we will disagree, we are conservatives and think for ourselves. That's the great thing about being a conservative whether social, secular or whatever else. We just need to defeat Obama, take out the Libs who are destroying are country and cut spending. Tea Party, 9/12'er, Republican, Moderate Democrat, Independent, etc . It doesn't matter, let's roll back this Communist/Socialist administration. We can divide up the spoils later.
Comity and decorum with ‘60s radicals will assure defeat. Have the courage of our convictions with a strong leader (Reagan) and we will clobber the left into to irrelevance, the trick is to stay vigilant through several election cycles.
That being said…the great Ronald Reagan used to say, to paraphrase, “a person that agrees with you 80% of the time is an ally.” A purity test will only divide this great new American revival, like someone on these boards the other day said, “let’s keep the Titanic from sinking, we’ll worry about chair placement later.” Focus on utterly defeating the left!
exactly – put your message out and see who comes to it. None of this political backstabbing and changing values to keep in power.
There are a lot more of us than there are of them. Their great trick is to create the illusion of many, when they are few through Alinsky tactics and making a constant sound an fury. The MSM hs greatly assisted them at every turn by creating the impression for a national consensus on issues for their agenda. But they are over. The MSM has been outed and collapsing.
We can take their lessons and merge it with the truth, and constantly be in their faces. The internet helps to spread the truth and to organize busy people who are usually being productive instead of fomenting.
.
It's wise to remember that the last administration essentially adopted the tactics of the Trotskyites: "Disinformation is the fastest way to convince your enemies."
All these renegade boomers (whether Left Or Right) do a disservice to the American traditions of open debate.
To Stan H: Taking too low a road with any opposition will also potentially poison victory. Scorched Earth policies ultimately just leave scorched Earth. The reason the most radical Leftists have never been able to undermine our fundamental traditions is due to that fact. America has always been too strong to be permanently subverted by DISHONORABLE players.
There aren't different versions of the truth. And the truth will set us all free.
Also, I would like a truly consistently "strong leader".
Any suggestions?
How do you come up with an agreement of what "absolute truth" is?
The RNC and Republican "Establishment" had better learn [and I think a few of them have] that We The People will not be satisfied with RINOs/Reach Across the Islers/Compromisers of Principles. We do know that we want some Men with Cajones to stand tall and be truthful. We know that 'I' will not agree with everything 'you' say. Don't stand next to the enemy and smile like he is your best friend. This is not a game. We really are awake and we ain't playin'. We know what excrement sandwiches taste like and we would rather starve than to take another bite. So take them off the RNC menu, we want our Red Meat. And while I like mine well done, I know others may prefer medium rare.
How on earth did you get a picture of the MSNBC Christmas party? That is a strange wheelbarrow race.
i've been saying forever that we need to use their tactics against them if we plan to get anywhere. Good to see others are coming around.
The Conservative leadership better be on the same page more or less preferably more, because if the significant clash for the life of this Republic comes down to the high-minded, above board jellyfish going up against the merciless, ruthless Huns. The Huns will be victorious and that's a Truth.
The weakness in Alinsky's strategy is that he could not have foreseen the internet, instant video replay, and citizen journalists surpassing MSM in getting out news. . .this certainly has helped wake up sleeping Americans to whom and what we are up against.
Our hope is to throw the Marxists out of office by continuing to bring forth/support the strongest candidates and then vote in such overwhelming numbers — all the voter fraud and manipulation will not win!! Perhaps even the increasingly bizarre Mdm Pelosi can be defeated. . . poor baby, poor baby. . .
Very well stated. The purity claims(we are the real grass root group, not them) coming from some groups as they wag their fingers at the rival organization and spout off to the enemy media has been astounding. Talk about lack of focus and aiding an abetting the enemies hope to divide and conquer.
In reality though I see what all the groups are actually doing and they are all fighting the same fights for the same issues albeit with different methods in many cases. This is actually a good thing however as others have pointed out that it is driving the leftist really bonkers as they are frustrated in exactly who, where, or when to try and counterattack.
Knowing that there are those among uswith views that differ slightly means keeping the bigger picture in mind and fighting all for one because in this fight losing is not an option. The statists are close to permanently taking away our say in everything.
However we also must recognize that many of those statists also reside comfortably in the GOP and have set the wrong direction for the party for years while gaining little and conceding much.
I think your instant news is the key. I watched Beck for the first time because 10 out of my 11 fellow employees believed him an evil liar on Fox (I've now learned that none of those 10 have ever seen Beck's show–one girl's mother recently bought her a Time subscription because mom thought she needed to be aware of current political events). Anyway, as I was first watching Beck, he would make a statement or point, and me, still a registered Democrat at the time, would say, "he is crazy." Then, there's video of Obama (or Pelosi, or Van Jones) verifying everything Beck just said. Then, I find BigGovernment.com, and I have learned that I had been numbed to ascertaining the truth, and the MSN had been hiding it from me. I hope many more wake out of the zombie stuper soon.
You have self-evolved! Good for you. . .I was in a similar position while working in downtown Chicago during Nobama's political rise. . .I was considered a radical because I watched FOX News (shock)!!! Thank goodness for the internet, cable tv, talk radio, a few fair newspapers/mags, and citizen journalists — the truth of what is happening is circumventing the Alinsky tactic of controlling the news!!! . . .how timely our conversation is with the Chi Coms announcing their journalists need Marxist training to remember they are to support the government!!!
Time Magazne,good grief!!!! Our saving grace is that if those newsrags do not quit propagandizing, they will go the way of Air America better known as "Scare America."
Best of luck to you!!!!
Why? RINO's are nothing other that leftists who oppose what needs to be done. You can't accomplish anything, if your first act is to hire people who are going to oppose what you do. I think the RINO argument is way overblown. They need to go and go first. Without that you will NEVER unite conservatives. This isn't about having some arcane litmus test, consisting of a long list of policy positions, where, "one strike and you're out", but rather if said people support the general conservative philosophy. If they do not, then there's no reason to have them. This isn't about making "a big tent". "Big tents" are about directionless pandering by people who do not understand what leadership is. Leadership, on the other hand, attracts people and loyalty with it's inherent human appeal. DEMONTRATE LEADERSHIP and all the RINO issues resolve themselves, as the RINOS will leave, since they dont' have any inclination to "work that hard".
Dr. Loudon:
If you want unity in the conservative movement, tell Glenn Beck to stop trashing potential conservative candidates on single issues.
I agree! Entrapment is entrapment, no matter what the reason! Either you are 'for it' or 'against it'…you cannot ride the rails on this one! If they condemn Hannah and James for doing the job that the law enforcement community REFUSES to do, then law enforcement should be banned from entrapping people also!
If the GOP want to reinstate their base the need to be HONEST, and STOP with all the earmarks!! I do not care what state they are from, their contributions to ear marks are just as dangerous and toxic as the Democrats!!! STOP SPENDING OUR MONEY ON GARBAGE!!!
There are some very rational people with valid concerns regarding Mr. Obama status as a Natural Born Citizen. It is from both left and on the Right that Alinsky-type ridicule is leveled at anyone asking these questions. The TRUTH seems to be irrelevent in this particular issue. It is my belief that anyone who can demand that the the Consitution be upheld; that it is not a "living document, while looking the other way when it comes to the eligibility clause is not pursuing TRUTH.
The high ground has already been taken, so I will grab whatever ground is available.
Truth should trump belief. We've seen what value truth has for the Left.
We don't need a leader at this point. They would just be a target for the media to pound on for the next two years.
We don't need a leader at this point. They would just be a target for the media to pound on for the next two years.
Thanks so much! I totally agree on our adherence to our Constitution and limited government!
lol!
There's a growing rift between what we call neoconservatives, who are seen as pro-war in the middle east, and your Ron Paul types who are anti-war. I'm not sure how that is going to play out.
The left will win because, despite of their differences, their cohesion and tenacity gives them strength, not in numbers, but in shear will. They don't have to be right, just loud and obnoxious enough to throw everyone off their guard and while the other side tries to regroup, they seize the initiative. The right, while the majority, is more diverse and diffused, excepting of established norms and therefore unable to adapt quickly to change, like deer in the headlights. Alinsky, a quick study of human behavior, found and exploited this flaw, perfecting it to an art form so much so that opponents rareley know what hit them. They can be beat, but not by mealy-mouthed, equivocating apologists and weak-kneed politicians.
Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of war!"
This all sounds great, but just see what happens when you name some names: like Palin, Huckabee, Romney, Limbaugh, and Beck. Even the mostly disliked McCain has his defenders (including Palin and Romney who are seen as opposites). All the swords are drawn and ready for internecine battles. Throw in conservative religious values and the conservative libertarians mostly go nuts!
We are a divided group with only a vague understanding of basic tenets of conservatism. This isn’t to say conservatives will lose, but that there really is no cohesiveness among otherwise independent minded individuals. Right now the social conservatives are getting pushed aside, despite the number that feel aligned with the Tea Party core. The fact this post mentions a “pro-life activists faction” and labeled people who would watch The Passion as “ultra-conservative right” only underlines a secular/religious division in the conservative movement that has too long been ignored. That, I believe, is where the fault line is that could topple the conservative momentum. The biggest question is how to work together as desperate groups?
sorry if this posted twice. I don’t know if it posted once.
This all sounds great, but just see what happens when you name some names: like Palin, Huckabee, Romney, Limbaugh, and Beck. Even the mostly disliked McCain has his defenders (including Palin and Romney who are seen as opposites). All the swords are drawn and ready for internecine battles. Throw in conservative religious values and the conservative libertarians mostly go nuts!
We are a divided group with only a vague understanding of basic tenets of conservatism. This isn’t to say conservatives will lose, but that there really is no cohesiveness among otherwise independent minded individuals. Right now the social conservatives are getting pushed aside, despite the number that feel aligned with the Tea Party core. The fact this post mentions a “pro-life activists faction” and labeled people who would watch The Passion as “ultra-conservative right” only underlines a secular/religious division in the conservative movement that has too long been ignored. That, I believe, is where the fault line is that could topple the conservative momentum. The biggest question is how to work together as desperate groups?
The inherent contraction is “uniting people” who “advocate freedom.” We strongly believe in the individual and few of us are willing to set our personal issues aside. Victory comes only through overwhelming numbers. We have abdicated the responsibility for teaching our children (heck, ANY children) of what is so special about our country. Crying out “Tell Glenn Beck to do ____” or “Ron Paul needs to ____” is not helpful, but is unlikely to keep people from voting come this fall. In the 1990’s, we were told that “character doesn’t matter,” and we are now reaping the consequences of millions of voters believing they can have soulless representation in DC. Moving back toward our founding principles means removing these ugly layers of paint, and that is the one with which to start. I would rather vote for an earnest, honest Democrat than a slimy Republican …
Great Article Thank you! Why only the strong will
surviveprevail! As Dems smear Repubs and other Dems, and Repubs smear Dems and other Repubs with their Alinsky tactics, the same basis that got them or will get them elected will take them or have already taken them out of office.[...] » In the Clash of Conservatives, Truth Is the Only Way Forward … [...]
It is decent to expose corruption! If one group is limited by truth only, with no exceptions for investigations, then criminal activity will run rampant!!! Under that theology, to wait in hiding to witness a wrong, would it in itself be wrong (Deceitful to those exposed)!!
Well said! Deal making for the sake of a deal has compromised us into socialism and a lazy society. If politics is the art of compromise, good politics is knowing when to compromise.
The difference begins when the focus shifts to social issues. The entire existance of liberals is to push a social agenda and control behavior based on preference of select groups. It's disgusting and needs to be destroyed.
As long as we can win the battle for the Constitution and limited government, then social issues can be dealt with…wait for it…by individuals!
Yes, but if someone has a 99.9% solid conservative record, people will eat them alive over that 0.1% and brand them a RINO for life.
The point is for conservatives to recognize first that they are on the same side, and focus their energy on destroying liberalism in all it's forms.
But, if anyone can explain to me how being socially liberal/conservative has any bearing on keeping the State the hell out of lives, I've been waiting my entire life.
Is it true?
Look, I don't want to sound rude, but I've had this argument about a thousand times and your defense doesn't get any more intelligent any time I have it. 40% of the country identifies itself as Conservative. According to people like you, at least 10% of those people are "RINOs" and should be expelled from the party. That means that 70% of the public won't vote for your candidates.
Welcome to the permanent minority. On the bright side, you can pat yourself on the back because you refuse to compromise your principles or beliefs on a single issue. On the downside you'll never win another election and never get a single piece of legislation passed (or judge nominated) who reflects your opinions.
But the good news is you'll get lots of pats on the back on message boards.
Oh i think we're turning that corner – conservative GOP already want the tea party to change from what it is to being more socially conservative.
That's awesome.
The more Libertarian wing of the Republicans is very committed but also tend be very quiet. Look at the showing Paul had in the CPAC poll. I think November is much more up in the air unless there is firmer consensus with regards to the direction the party takes in the next few months. It seems to me that the fissures on the right are deeper than many suppose.
Agreed. There aren't different versions of the truth.
Very well said.
Benjamin Franklin used his influence to persuade the undecided delegates to sign the Constitution. To illustrate his point, Franklin told a humorous story about two Frenchwomen he had met when he was in France. He described them as ladies who did not readily accept the opinions of others. According to Franklin's story, one of the women said to the other, "Sister, I have lived a long time and known a great many people, but I have never found anyone other than myself who is always right."
That's all well and good when you're dealing with the loyal opposition not Neo-Bolsheviks.
Yes, being socially liberal does not mean that I want the State to be the all powerful.
Social conservatism and progressivism have more in common in their desire to have complete control over everybody's lives and choices.
Find God.
Yeah, because Glenn Beck and his 3+ million views (0.1% of the population) are what's causing all of conservatism's problems.
Politics is the art of compromise, good politics is knowing when to compromise.
I think what that guy on the left is doing is illegal in Alabama, Utah, and Texas.
Dr. Loudon isn't suggesting we stop fighting the left. She correctly says we conservatives should stop fighting our fellow conservatives, especially over trivial issues.
It's only entrapment if the act, considered as a whole, meets a fairly stringent test: Did the "sting operator" use persuasion, bribery or coercion, which then caused the "sting target" to act in a manner in which he normally would NOT.
The Giles/O'Keefe case doesn't meet this test. It was not entrapment. Entrapment is illegal.
Jesus Saves.
Just kidding.
This apparently eludes you, Sanmon. It'd be funny if it weren't so tragic.
And if she did that and if Glenn Beck obeyed, you'd just move on to the next person that you don't like. *shaking head*
That's kinda like saying to a woman you're dating, "You'll do."
What you really want is statism, Des, just not as quickly as the liberals are heading towards it. That's fine, but wait a minute…bahahahhaha…ok, continue on with your silly charade. Maybe you'll find someone around here who's willing to swallow such arguments. I kinda doubt it, but it'll be entertaining to watch all the same.
Well, I wouldn't say that it's the same thing — the methodology is similar — but the critical distinction (as others have said below) is that H&G are private citizens. Maybe there are palecons out there who hate the pimp costume or think the ACORN tapes are illegal or something, but you know what? I haven't heard from there. All I've read is hair-splitting antics from the DKos/MSM axis.
I stand corrected.. I agree that it's more important to flush these libs out of all levels of government first, and the best way to do that is with staggering majorities of conservatives in offices nationwide. Well, I'm in it to win it..
I'm with you 100%.
We need to make sure this BS we're suffering through never happens again. This is the most sickening times (politically speaking) I've ever lived through.
I'd prefer hard-edged conservatives all the way. I don't know what we're supposed to do about someone like Lindsey Graham. I don't think I'd vote for him over anyone.
If we're not careful, we'll end up like Britain, where the conservatives run on the premise that they can manage the nanny state better than the liberals. That's sick, and I want no part of that.
Thank you for replying. My best wishes to you and yours!
I have now read a bunch of your posts and my reaction is "hallelujah, brother!". Most people don't understand the point you are making here, which is why I picked this one to reply to. I am all for freedom of religion/conscience and free exercise, just don't tell me how to live or that I'll go to hell. My damned business! The "religious right" (those who seek to impose on me) are EVERY bit as dangerous as anyone on the Left. And they turn off a lot of "independents". My guess is that you are personally conservative and socially "tolerant" (instead of "liberal", for what that term means anymore). Read Ayn Rand and you may discover that Objectivism is what the Founding Fathers had in mind way back in the day. I will make suggestions if you like (most people are not familiar with the non-fiction).
Is this you?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NelBNtNm8l0
Spliff rocks!
Lindsey Graham! that swine is a senator from South Carolina. South Carolina is a state peopled with a majority of wonderful conservative people. It should have senators who are rock ribbed conservatives. In cases where a Rino is in a conservative district or state, he should be defeated in the primary .. With the conservative ascendancy taking place as it is, and real unrest manifesting itself among us voters, primary voters should not think of Rino encumbents as a sure thing over conservative newcomers when it comes time for the General election. Myself, I'd rather take him over the democrat. At least, until we have our majority back. Graham will do less harm if he is there than a liberal, even though the liberal would be replaced with a real conservative 6 years later.
Or think of it this way: The democrat strategy was get the majority first, work on purity second. Their unpopular bills are causing them angst, but clearly they have the upper hand.
I guess, CorporalO, it all comes down to defining what's a trivial difference, what else might be a non-trivial yet acceptable difference, etc.
With Graham, though, as with McCain, I have enormous problems. I think we'd be better off with a McCain presidency, but there's no doubt President McCain would drive me up the wall with his BS, too.
It's not that tough, RINOs, to grow a pair and a spine. The country will get behind you if you do.
You don't get to pick the bits and pieces of freedom you believe in based on which side of the aisle you want to belong to.
I think socially tolerant would be more descriptive today. The word "liberal" has been hijacked by progressives.
And although that is not me in said video, that is who I strive to become!
Pavlov’s psychological studies predicted that behaviors would be repeated long after the previous rewards ceased, if the rewards were reinforced for long enough beforehand. http://www.louisvuitton4love.com/louis-vuitton-po... For years, the MSM could smack down the right and the right retreated. The MSM does not appear to understand the new dynamic or psychological curve ball the right has thrown their way.
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