My husband, a former college football player and stalwart fan still, has been telling me tales about Tim Tebow ever since the young man played his debut season at the University of Florida. Not only was this kid a super-great champion of the gridiron, proclaimed my totally jock husband, he is the kind of young man who stands upon his faith with uncommon strength and pride.
The first time I saw Tim for myself and spotted his now famous use of Bible verses in his under-eye paint, I must admit I was wowed. Admittedly, I was more impressed by Tim’s willingness to stand proud on his faith than on his prowess with a football, but even I must admit that winning the Heisman Trophy is no small feat.
So, now Tim has played his final season at the University of Florida, having brought his family, his friends and his school much reason for pride. And he has chosen, along with his mother, to make a profound revelation to the world at large regarding his even being alive. His mother, advised to abort for health reasons, chose instead to bring Tim’s life to fruition. And what a life Tim has had so far.
It’s a strong, irrepressible argument for the very real fact that no mother ever knows, in advance, what the child she and her male partner have conceived, may one day become.
But this is just a scientific, logical fact. Every single person walking this earth today is a former fetus, who was once totally reliant on the beneficence of his or her mother’s womb. We were all of us once embryos, once fetuses and once infants, not the least bit capable of surviving without care-giving. Anyone who can read a middle-school biology book knows this much about human beings.
And no life is predetermined. No one has the omnipotence to gauge what possibilities each and every human life holds. Not mother, not father, not government, not society.
These are irrefutable facts, not controversies.
Yet, so-called feminist groups and “pro-choice” advocates around the country are throwing a nationally broadcast hissy fit over CBS’ decision to air this “controversial” statement by Tim Tebow and his mother.
What’s the problem?
Could the problem for pro-abortion interests be that the term, “pro-choice,” keeps the minds of society and all potential mothers on the very real fact that in the instance of abortion, there is a human being who is given no choice whatsoever. That human being is the child. Through no action of his own, he has been conceived. Through the very real “choice” made by both his mother and his father, he is procreated.
From day one, this embryo, this child, has his own DNA, his own unique place in the human family. This is the fact that gets drowned out by the proponents’ arguments for abortion on demand.
And it is this primordial fact that is obscured, quite successfully, by the “pro-choice” position on abortion.
The real problem with the Tim Tebow ad has nothing to do with football, nothing to do with the legalities of abortion on demand and nothing to do with all the people now living, walking, talking breathing.
It has everything to do with the value of each and every human being, the unknown possibilities of every conceived child and the profound weight of the decision that mothers and fathers made when they chose to conceive.
In the end, abortion proponents are forced to focus only on the mother’s financial, physical and emotional well-being. If they, even for one minute, stop to consider the non-choice of another human being (not to mention fathers), all their arguments to women suddenly fall on deaf ears.
Tim Tebow, with quite astounding football prowess, is one child who was allowed to live. And grow and prosper. And succeed. To the delight of his parents and his family, friends and football fans.
Since 1973, 51 million Americans just like him were not given this privilege. They were killed by abortionists before they had the chance to show what they could be.
And that is a message that the abortion lobby cannot dare let come to light.
Therein lies the problem with the Tebow ad.
Such a pity. Football would probably have survived without the grace of Tim Tebow. Americans need to start asking whether our country can continue to survive the ravages of killing our offspring before they get a chance to give us their gifts.
Yes, to conceive a child is always a choice. Except in the instance of rape, a woman chooses every time a new life is created. Whether or not to end that life, which has been created, is only half a choice. The human being, who is killed, deprived of his right to continue living, is the other half of that choice.
And that’s the half that no abortion proponent can talk about.
Tim Tebow stands as living proof that abortion is a choice too far. Only when women can believe that their baby is nothing but a “blog of fetal tissue” can they see the half-choice of abortion through the rose-colored glasses supplied by the abortion lobby.
We are all former fetuses. Bravo to Tim Tebow and his mom for reminding us of that irrefutable fact.
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An inside look, life before birth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyFrGbAvfHc
This was hashed and rehashed in the post on Saturday…But suffice it to say .. abortion isTHE sacrament to the leftist church of statism and the sooner we can elect people who will vote to defund it, the sooner this barbaric practice can be minimized .
The Pro-Choice movement has proved once again that they are not Pro-Choice but Pro-Abortion. Every time a fetus is not aborted Planned Parenthood makes less money.
A fetus isn't a human. What's wrong with the anti-abortion propaganda is that you don't have the other side – the crackhead babies who become murderers and rapists.
What a Dumb@ss
The fact that we as a society rely on the murder of the unborn is unthinkable. We would be far stronger if we were supportive of life in this, and countless other ways. So many things in our modern world are a product of mans desire to shift accountability from his own to another. We live in a place where murder is better than self reliance. To quote the great Metallica, “Sad but true”.
Fetuses suck their thumbs.
Oh yeah, they aren't thumbs.
And the other side is people like you.
What babies are murderers and rapists? Most of the murderers and rapists I read about are adult Democrats.
It's ok. good ol' Fonz is illustrating the eugenics mentality that drives the placement of PP abortuaries in urban centers.
Honestly the man is so hot – I'll take any commercial with starring him. His mother is a hero.
Fonz just doesn't like heavily pigmented people. They tend to be the ones that get aborted most often.
Speaking of not human…If you were any less human, you'd be a NAZI…Oh, you are….Your mother must be VERY proud…
Now you have+22 pts….Yesterday -65….You've been a busy Nazi…
The issue here is not one of a Religious belief…the issue here is one of willfull ignorance.
This is the XXI Century, Science is no longer 'obscure', and has spoken about the human embryo.
I am a Pediatrician with two Doctorates in Developmental Biology. Basic science teaches that the Embryo is an Individual of the Human Species. From implantation until his/her death (natural or otherwise) that INDIVIDUAL will always be THE SAME individual,
Science also teaches that the Human embryo is not just a bunch of cells developing into a Human, rather it is a Human individual undergoing Development.
Dr. Micheline Matthews-Roth of Harvard Medical School stated “It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive. …It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception, when egg and sperm join to form the zygote, and this developing human always is a member of our species in all stages of its life."
Dr. Jerome LeJeune, University of Descartes (discoverer of the Down syndrome chromosome) stated the same: "To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. The human nature of the human being from conception to old age is not a metaphysical contention; it is plain experimental evidence."
With this in mind one can clearly see that Abortion is intrinsically EVIL as it is aimed to the destruction on a defenseless Human Individual. It is as EVIL as Slavery or the Holocaust
This is the Civil Right issue of the XXI century: to uphold that ALL INDIVIDUALS are EQUAL.
Pro-Choice (pro-Abortion) people willfully ignore that thechoice they are for is the death of an innocent individual
Join LifeNews.com, Americans United for Life and 75,000+ people as we support Focus on the Family and their pro-life ad celebrating Tim Tebow and his mother's decision to not abort him. http://www.facebook.com/TebowSuperBowlAd
The Tebow ad is fine, but does nothing to change my mind. The Pro Choice groups are nuts to get so angry about it. The logical response ad would be for them to have the parent of a woman who died in childbirth talking about their choice and it’s consequences. They should applaud Mrs. Tebow’s choice to have Tim despite the doctor’s concerns. It should be every woman’s right to take that chance if they feel it’s what they need to do. It should also be every woman’s choice not to take that risk, especially if they already have children they need to care for.
I find the argument that fetus are equal to living babies from day one completely disingenuous. If that was the case, we’d have to have police investigations every time a woman had a miscarriage, and if she did something to cause it (i.e. work too much, not get enough rest, etc…) she’d have to be prosecuted the same as a woman who left her child in a hot car. It’s a ridiculous premise because we all agree that they are not the same thing. Abortions should happen as rarely as possible, but they have to be the choice of the woman because only she has to deal with the consequences (at least the physical ones). Places where the Pro Life community should be able to find consensus with those who don’t totally agree are partial birth abortion and parental notification. They also can work to remind women of how wonderful that life could become (as they are doing with the Tebow ad). Personally I think that’s the best use of their time and resources.
"A fetus isn't a human" – Fonz.
Fonz isn't a human.
Hey Fonz, are Jews humans? You want to retroactively abort them? Hmmmm?
Seig Heil Fonz.
"we'd have to have police investigations every time a woman had a miscarriage" – Des.
Come on, that's ridiculous. That's a biological fuction. Scraping a fetus from the placenta and VACUUMING it out is obviously different.
Have you been around an expaectant mother who has a miscarriage? The trauma is REAL and HEART FELT.
Wake up.
The question is not WHY there are so many abortions,
the question is why are there so many unwanted pregnancies?
There are at LEAST a dozen reliable forms of contraception
available to the public. If we make the use of these
are main focus, we would NOT be having this discussion
Without eugenics, a society will be short-lived. Especially a welfare state.
Five bucks says his previous account got banned.
It's actually me (I played in a Disco band for a few years….now I'm almost fully recovered
).
Is my scenario ridiculous? Sure. But the fact is, if a fetus was the same as a baby, then it's life would have to be protected the same as one. Just because they aren't the same doesn't mean it doesn't have incredible value. I am very much against abortion, but I don't feel anyone has the right to tell a woman she has to undergo a pregnancy which could be quite dangerous (I've had two women close to me who underwent very risky pregnancies, and one almost died). I fully agree that abortion is very different from a miscarriage, just as I say that a fetus is different from a baby. Valuable, but not exactly the same thing. At the moment, the price we pay for giving women the choice is that many choose to capriciously end their pregnancies in a way that is horrific to many of us. I'd like to see that end, but for now there is no better option.
"I find the argument that fetus are equal to living babies from day one completely disingenuous. If that was the case, we'd have to have police investigations every time a woman had a miscarriage"
This argument is not unlike the one where a black person is 3/5 of a person because the law says a black person is 3/5 of a person. There are no such investigations, because of the legal fiction that an unborn child is not a person.
Taken to its absurd, yet very real conclusion, we have the case of a mother in Virginia who killed her just born baby by suffocation. The police could do nothing about it. Why? The baby was still attached to the mother via the umbilical cord.
If the upbringing of a baby has no effect on the outcome of the adult, why bother? Stick the kid in the closet and give him bread and water and spend your money on fun stuff for yourself. After all, the kid has "free will" and it is his own damn fault if he turns out rotten.
If, on the other hand, upbringing DOES matter then those who are brought in to the world in some ghetto environment will be more likely to be a burden on society.
Obviously society agrees with the latter. And it is why thinking individuals (conservatives) don't let their emotions do their thinking (like liberals) and realize abortion is the best option some times.
The very minute the sperm and egg combine, a new DNA pattern is created — not a carbon copy of the father's or the mother's genes, but a new and absolutely unique pattern. It is ludicrous that the decision to end this new being's existence is considered so lightly by so many.
The Talmud teaches Jews that Gentiles are not human.
BTW, I've also been around a woman who's had an abortion, and trust me some of them feel a great sense of loss. I would never trivialize abortion or miscarriages. To some women they are just as devastating as the loss of a child who's already been born. But that doesn't give me the right to force them to carry that baby to term. That's a different argument (and one I've come to believe is not anyone's right to force on them).
What does "Mein Kampf" teach you?
Seig Heil Fonzzy!
Wrong again Little Hitler:
"However, R. Yehudah teaches, that is not the case at all. Gentiles are people and not merely animals and the verse in Ezekiel does not mean that gentiles are animals. To understand the verse literally, the Talmud says, is to misunderstand the verse. Gentiles are unquestionably human, created in G-d's image, and Jewish law recognizes this as do the rabbis of the Talmud."
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/man2.html
See?
With eugenics we might be short one "Fonz".
Yeah. It also has a recipe for blood matzoh.
Fonz’s argument uses the same principle behind the gun control argument. Blame someone or something else for the problems in the world. People like Fonz truly don’t think through this issue at all. How can a person sit there and say that “all these rapists and murderers” aren’t here because of abortion wiping them out? Even if they KNEW that there would be rapists and murderers out of the bunch to be aborted, what difference does that make? There ARE rapists and murderers who are *alive right now*. Abortion didn’t make a damn bit of difference in getting rid of them, did it? Rape and murder still abound.
Every last argument I have EVER heard a pro-abort advocate espouse has at best been ludicrous. Every last one. How people consistently allow politicians to be put into power that continue allowing legalized abortion is beyond me.
Cool. I played in heavy metal bands for years – mid 70's – early 80's.
The difference is obvious. I'm not trying to openly ridicule you point, I appreciate it very much.
If a criminal shots a pregnant woman and kills her and the baby (fetus) dies, many states will charge and convict that perp for murder.
If the woman lives and the baby deis – it's murder.
If the baby (fetus) mlives and the mother dies – it's muder.
In criminal law (in some places) the death of a fetus by murder is punishable by murder charges.
I'm not making stuff up.
When is a Fetus Considered Living?
"Although many states now have fetal homicide laws, there are a wide variety of differences about when a fetus is considered living. In Missouri and 17 other states, the laws recognize a fetus as living at the time of conception."
http://crime.about.com/od/issues/a/fetalhomicide….
Not taking a side either way in this debate, though I will voice that the issue with the Tebow ad is not in the content, but in the fact that CBS is choosing to air the ad despite their own FIRM anti-advocacy policies for ads during the Super Bowl.
The issue is one of discrimination on the part of CBS. They have declined to show ads that have LGBT rights tones to them due to this very policy. They MUST apply the same for Focus as well…otherwise, they MUST permit the advocacy ads they have turned away to air.
Question?…..Are you Blogging from JAIL?
As I said I appreciate your opinion but I think the devaluing of life (from conception through to the elderly) has burdened this country with a cheapening of the value of life.
It seems simplistic – but people ought to strive to NOT GET pregnant if it's going to result inan abortion.
Jake
But he's using the same name…Maybe Stornfront is connected to the IntenseDataBase
My argument, as illustrated by the 3/5 reference and the Virginia case, is that basing your argument against the humanity of an unborn child, by citing the lack of police investigations in cases of miscarriage, is flawed. It is predicated upon law failing to recognize an individual's humanity and rights.
"Plus, who's going to be the first person to advocate jailing a 15 year-old for having an abortion (or doing something to cause a miscarriage) because she was afraid of giving birth?"
Firstly, there is no difference between aborting or "doing something to cause a miscarriage." Why she committed the hypothetical abortion isn't relevant, any more than whether a person of skin color A kills another of skin color B because of B's skin color, or to get the contents of B's wallet. Murder is murder.
"I would disagree with the Virginia case because the baby was born and presumably breathing on it's own. It's a weird case, but being attached doesn't equal not being born (in my meager understanding of the law)."
That's exactly my point! In Virginia, that is the law. But just because the law says the baby is not a person, does not change the reality that the baby was, in fact, a person! Further, the fiction of linking personhood to birth is what makes legal the obscenity of partial birth abortion. You see, if all but the babies head is delivered, it's perfectly legal to murder it by butchering the part that's still inside the mother's body.
Oh, snap!
Dear Fonz,
Let me attempt to use an analogy to dissect your thinking.
(apologies to comparing a human fetus to a Ford)
Let's say there is an assembly line with a Ford (pre-car) on it. A guy comes up and says, "Excuse me, I'm taking this compilation of metal, plastic, rubber and glass to the dump. The guy on the line says, "Wait, you can't take a perfectly good car and destroy it!"
The first man says, "It is not a car yet, and anyway, how do you know it will be a perfectly good car? Maybe it will be a lemon, or maybe it will end up even killing someone. In fact it might be better if I just take all these pre-cars. Better safe than sorry."
Must they? Who say? The law? Please cite.
Maybe not such a bad idea.
Hey Fonz, sit on it! EVERYTHING God creates is a living creature. Not just when birth takes place, but the very moment God decides to put another living, breathing creature on this Earth. Those who decide to play God for God are really playing with fire. Please rethink this & leave the issue of life & death to God. They are His province only.
It's obvious your parents' closet approach did not work.
LOL! Smacks of desperation.
Tim Tebow, the notorious rageaholic who screams at everybody and has all the classic signs of steroid abuse? That Tim Tebow? He's a hero? OK.
All true, and the juxtaposition of gun rights and Fonz's racism is particularly relevant. The origins of "gun control" as it is manifest today, has as its origin the goal of keeping guns out of the hands of blacks.
Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership has an excellent video that touches upon this issue: http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/movieplay-ngn-swf...
Absolutely BRILLIANT analysis…well quoted, and properly supported…!!
+1 to you…you obviously got your education's worth, and so did our society…thank you for what you do…
we need abortion laws in the usa that reflect the will of the people – we need post-birth abortions to rid ourselves of global warming, food shortages, and over population! We need the true believers to sacrifice themselves now – national organization of wo-men! if you cna't contribute to life get out of the way and volunteer all planned parenthood charter members first!
To draw conclusions solely to avoid (let's assume for the sake of argument) the extremely challenging consequences of alternate conclusions is supremely absurd. Reality simply is. How to deal with it is an entirely different question.
LOL! Read it. Face the truth Nazi.
He's reached "Fuhrer" level there. This is a "side gig".
That works well with your theories of racial bigotry and hate, don't it…
Let's try this…everything should be done to maximize opportunities and choices for anyone and everyone who wants employment within the United States, to the maximum of their capability or need…
Lucky us..I'm for free speech, but not the hateful bile he spews…In Germany he'd be arrested…
Sounds like communism to me.
Hey Fronz
Ive said this before, and bears repeating…….
It's really too bad that you've basterdized your obvious intelligence and writing ability, to be nothing more then a two-bit hate monger….Are you really Jimmah Carter???
If you've never taken the time to learn biology, I guess it's easy to make sweeping generalities with no basis in fact. The "crackhead baby" my wife and I adopted 3 years ago was an innocent, living fetus and is now a wonderful person. Abortion kills, Adoption saves.
Right at 50 % of black conceptions end in abortion. The Fonz is in good company with Barack I've-never-seen-a-baby-that-didn't-deserve-to-die Obama. One of the first things he did after his coronation was repeal the Mexico City thing.
Right? Nothing like a little "barely legal" pregnancy pr0n, eh? There's probably a website for just that fetish. *shudder*
Emotions don't "do" thinking. There are, in a sense, mutually exclusive but I appreciate your recognizing that Conservatives are the thinkers. Wow, the posters, above, are right–your idiot wrapping is coming off, Moron.
If you knew anything about communism, you would understand why you've been brainwashed into thinking that your emotions are to be trusted more than your ability to think.
Probably the callousness and crassness of Illiberals/Regressives.
"opportunities and choices", not "requirements", you burned-out bulb…
I can see why you're confused…your Obummer corrupted the language, and you're not up to the proper usage…
To get things from the government, you must meet "requirements"…to get things for yourself, you need "opportunities and choices"…
GOD, liberals are SO STUPID…
Thank you for the article. Some of us who have researched always knew that life begins the second the embryo is fertilized by the sperm. The "pro-choice" robots want an easy way out of a pregnancy. Well good for them. If they choose to murder their child in the womb nothing we say or do will stop them. They have no regard for anything living except for their own self-serving existence.
I believe in the sanctity and the miracle of life be it a tadpole embryo or a human embryo BUT right now I wish that Stanley Ann Dunham would've chosen an abortion. Also Pelosi's and Soros's mother. Sorry.
The subject isn't "life" – your arm is alive. Cutting off a mole isn't murder. You want to say HUMAN life. Soooo, if you want to say 1 – 8 cells of undifferentiated tissue (no brain at all) means a human then you just make yourself sound fringe.
"If a criminal shots a pregnant woman and kills her, and the baby (fetus) dies, many states will charge and convict that perp for murder."
That is an excellent point and I don't have a great answer. The problem is, it's circular logic. If a fetus is treated as a person for purposes of murder, then it should be for miscarriages and abortions. But if it was, you'd be forcing women to register with the government when they became pregnant and subject them to investigations and possible punishment if that baby died due to their actions (as determined by the court). That's an enormous intrusion into our lives by the government and I wouldn't support it for a second.
Abortions are terrible in most cases, but you can't have it sometimes be a life and other times be an acceptable choice (such as life of the mother or child rape victim exceptions). Bottom line is it's far more complicated than the "fetus = life" equation portrayed often by the Pro Life side. It's also more complicated than "woman seeing abortion = irresponsible." That's why neither end of the ideological spectrum is ever going to win this debate. There are more people against abortion than at any time in my life (I'm in my 40s), yet we're no closer to outlawing it than we were when Roe v Wade was made law. I don't know what the right answer is, so my default position has to be to leave it up to the woman.
I wonder how many of you pro-lifers are there to adopt a baby born with an addiction to drugs or physical or mental disabilities – or even a child born to a single woman who can not afford to offer it a good life. Unwanted babies probably don't all turn out to be football heroes. You talk, but do you act on your belief that life is sacred once the child is born>
On that we can wholeheartedly agree.
It that what you get from this article? wow. I thought it was about what all of those aborted babies could have been.
They are not "our" fetuses, they are not "our" children. That is the argument the left takes to justify burrowing itself into the most important respibility we have. Use that argument and they will control you.
You have a very illogical mind. I guess you follow the "throw of the dice" mindset of child rearing which, again, means you may as well leave them in the closet and raise them like an animal because it makes no difference……..right? OR does upbringing MATTER. And if upbringing matters, then those with a poor upbringing are more likely to turn out bad. And these mothers know it – aren't married, etc…. So why not give them the choice to save us all a lot of grief – not just her?
The anti-abortionists fall primarily in to two categories:
Religious-types who are controlled by some church and other fallible institutions to tell them what "Gawd" says for them to do (irrational)
Those driven purely by emotions.
"My argument, as illustrated by the 3/5 reference and the Virginia case, is that basing your argument against the humanity of an unborn child, by citing the lack of police investigations in cases of miscarriage, is flawed. It is predicated upon law failing to recognize an individual's humanity and rights."
My argument is that if women were told they'd have to report to the government when they got pregnant and face possible prosecution (and certain investigation) if they miscarried, you'd see the percentage of support among women go from wherever it is right now (30%-40%) down to almost 0. There are some people who grieve a miscarriage every bit as much as the loss of a child, but far more who do not. The fact is, almost every one of us treats a fetus differently in our minds than a baby who's been born. Therefore to argue that they are the same is disingenuous. I'm not saying it isn't a life or that it doesn't have great value. Just that they are not in fact the same.
"Firstly, there is no difference between aborting or "doing something to cause a miscarriage."
So you are saying that you'd be in favor of prosecuting women that had miscarriages if a court determined that they were negligent in some way. OK, that is a consistent position, but I think I can safely say it wouldn't even be close to the majority one. It's the people who aren't consistent that bug me (i.e. "A fetus is a life, but if the mother's life is in jeopardy then it's OK"). You believe so strongly in that unborn life that you are willing to tell (using the force of the government) a woman how she has to behave. I'm not. So we'll have to agree to disagree.
"The "pro-choice" robots want an easy way out of a pregnancy."
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Strawmen arguments don't help anyone. It annoys people who don't completely agree, and angers people who disagree. People who are pro choice are hardly robots. To say that women want an easy way out of pregnancy (not just some, but every last one) is moronic. A woman with 6 kids gets pregnant again and the doctor tells her if she gives birth she might die. So you say she's a robot or looking for the easy way if she doesn't choose to risk her life (and leave the children she does have without a mother).
Gee, now I understand why you're pro life. Your compassion just oozes from your post.
I might sound fringe to you, but I am a normal person who does not believe is aborting fetuses for the sake of convenience. The pro-choice "fringe" believe murder is the right way to go especially if the baby will interfere with their lifestyle. Abortion in today's society is like getting an enema. OOPS. Forgot to take my pill, forgot to buy a condom etc etc.
Meanwhile the Muslims here in the USA do not beleive in abortion and their birthrate is 8 to 1 of our babies. Do some calculating and you will see which direction this nation is heading for.
How can we as a society justify the killing of our unborn and then utilize the embryonic stem cells for "healing" to justify it. We're eating our young and this doesn't bother anyone?
Yes, many people do just that.
Wonderful article, Kyle-Anne.
To the individual ("The Fonz") who posted that the fetus is not human, "fetus" is Latin for "young one." There is no distinction there between a human being in the womb and one who has left his/her momma's special growing place.
[Fonz wrote
If, on the other hand, upbringing DOES matter then those who are brought in to the world in some ghetto environment will be more likely to be a burden on society.]
Funny, Michael Oher grew up in that world and turned into a God-fearing, responsible, and compassionate member of the Baltimore Ravens. Check out the hit movie, "The Blind Side" for the abridged version of Oher's life.
Just because a Black guy is born in the ghetto doesn't mean he's doomed to be a gangbanger. It's a Leftist mindset that declares environment fatalistically determines someone's destiny.
We tried to adopt but the waiting list runs into the years. Most women who choose to give birth keep their babies now.
CBS is not a government agency and thus can air or ban whatever they chose.
If a homosexual dating site wants to add to the flood of pro-gay TV propaganda, they can always air their ad on a more receptive network.
People who first scream "fetish" tend to engage in them.
Didn't pro-lifer Sarah Palin have a baby with a handicap?
@catsden
One more thing. Are YOU trying to adopt any of the orphans you're concern about?
If not, you should look in the mirror before pointing your finger at other "hypocrites."
The good news in that 6 out of 10 of Americans, especially in the under 30 crowd, consider abortion morally wrong:
http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/archives/805...
The next big challenge is getting elected officials to catch up with the pro-life public. That's where prayer and electing pro-life officials come in.
Fred2: I am not opposed to allow a woman to have an abortion, so I don't prattle on about fetuses uniting, and murder of "pre-born." Still, your attack was a nice diversion and removed all responsibility for your concern for the "young ones."
The link isn't working. I do want to see it, please see if its missing something in the URL.
You are brilliant! I love your methods of showing the idiocy of the troll!
I'll put your posture down to ignorance of the history and facts surrounding the abortion issue. Honesty has never been the issue, particularly on the pro-abortion side.
Abortion was illegal in all 50 states from the Revolution until 1973. In all of those years, how many women were imprisoned for having abortions? Answer: None. Zero. Nada. Laws against abortion were always aimed at those who performed abortions. The laws looked at women who had had abortions as victims. Enforcement of the abortion statutes was always directed at finding and prosecuting abortionists who made their actions known in the trail of injured or dead women left in their wake.
The original feminists Susan B Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton were active in promoting laws which outlawed abortions from the moment of conception, because they saw abortion for what it truly is—a method for keeping women in sexual subjugation to sexually irresponsible men.
Thats Jimmah Cahta….
I was enlightened the other day to a better spelling of the last name….thought you would appreciate it!
The Fonz still sucks his thumb!
I was not talking about extenuating circumstances. I was talking about "run of the mill abortions" because a woman or teenager was not thinking about what they were doing. My brother-in-law is a gynecologist and I have seen the worst possible cases that did require abortions to save the mother. Two headed fetuses, no limbs or maybe 6 limbs…this is not what i was referring to.
I was talking about mindless, everyday abortions that the pregnancy should not have happened due to negligence on the part of the woman because she was too lazy to take precautions. I do have compassion, but I don't have tolerance for teenagers screwing around negligently or women that get pregnant due to their own fault and don't want the baby interferring with their lifestyle. Think before you get drunk or get sexually motivated and have no protection!
I must say I love watching the left go apoplectic over the ad.
"Reframe the debate."
"Get control of the message."
All that lib-babble.
The general public sees their reaction and is turned off by it. That's not a bad thing.
"Laws against abortion were always aimed at those who performed abortions."
Which proves how utterly and completely dishonest the discussion has been. If abortion is murder (because fetuses are exactly the same as babies), then miscarriages are exactly the same as manslaughter or negligent homicide, yet women were not held responsible for either. So how is that consistent with the position that it's murder? Sounds more like abortion was treated as an illegal medical procedure. If it's murder, then hiring someone to do it is just as bad as the person who does it (and if you do it accidentally it still carries criminal punishment). If not, then you're making my argument that they really are different in almost everyone's mind.
OH MY!!! How do I even begin to respond! Let’s get this fact right from the get go…no one decides that they will conceive a baby just because they have sex. Some people try for years and can’t make this happen. DON’T WE HUMANS GET IT! We can make the choice to have sex….or not…but the developing baby inside the human body was not designed by man’s ingenious!!! Life can only happen through a human body…otherwise we can’t have life. We were created to reproduce LIFE! If there were no human being there would be no human life. A fetus is not a blob of tissue! It moves because it is a living being inside another living being. Look at an ultrasound…even in an abortion the removing of a living body is evidence that it is LIFE ending… A horrific sight!
I HAD AN ABORTION and I can tell you that it was LIFE, part of my life that is now gone. I don’t have a Tim Tebow to prove that it was a living life but it still was a living life just as you and I are right now writing all this stuff.
No one has the right to decide that I will definitely conceive and therefore no one has the right to definitely take the conception. He who gives life is the only one who can truly take life away. I WAS WRONG…and all abortion is wrong! Check out my testimony just to get a taste of what one’s life becomes as a result of abortion then tell me it is still ok…Go to: http://www.sermonaudio.com/theezekielproject and click on “Will Anyone Let This Cry Be Heard?” Thank you Mom Tebow! I celebrate your son’s life with you! Sorry to say you can’t celebrate my child’s life with me…..
"My argument is that if women were told they'd have to report to the government when they got pregnant and face possible prosecution (and certain investigation) if they miscarried, you'd see the percentage of support among women go from wherever it is right now (30%-40%) down to almost 0."
That is called a straw man argument. I haven't seen anyone promote pregnancy registration.
"There are some people who grieve a miscarriage every bit as much as the loss of a child, but far more who do not."
Irrelevant. Whether a child is grieved has no bearing on her humanity.
"The fact is, almost every one of us treats a fetus differently in our minds than a baby who's been born."
See above.
"I'm not saying it isn't a life or that it doesn't have great value."
You certainly appear to be saying the child isn't human life, yet you have yet to provide support for this assertion.
"…but I think I can safely say it wouldn't even be close to the majority one."
You are comfortable with put an individual's humanity to a vote, then?
"A fetus is a life, but if the mother's life is in jeopardy then it's OK."
This is actually a position fully consistent with the pro-life position (not to mention Jewish teaching).
"You believe so strongly in that unborn life that you are willing to tell (using the force of the government) a woman how she has to behave."
I am very comfortable with law proscribing certain behavior. Assaults. Theft. Fraud. And most to this issue, murder. I'm not clear on what you mean by the phrase "You believe so strongly in that unborn life.." though. The child, and the child's death, are both very real. No belief or faith is necessary.
Bet you don't live in a Black neighborhood, either.
Well, according to the movie he needed a White person to save him.
Either way, statistically I'm right.
That's fine, but it's not what you said. Not to bust your chops, but when you make sweeping statements people who don't know you have to take you at your word.
I despise the idea of using abortion as birth control. But you can't make laws that say it's OK for certain women to do it under certain circumstances (although I suppose using the murder analogy it could be considered self-defense). The price we pay for keeping it legal (which I see no way around considering our current technology) is that some (maybe even most) people will misuse it. If someone can propose a way to remove fetuses and grow them outside the mother's body, then I could revisit the argument. Until that happens, the only people who can make the determination are the woman and her doctor. The only thing we can do is council them that there are other options (and unforeseen downsides to doing the "easy" thing). We could also make it easier for ones who simply cannot afford it (with no support system, how does a woman afford appropriate medical care and the time she'd be unable to work?). The problem is, that gets into the government being more socialistic in regards to the health care system which most of us do not want.
There are a lot of problems that have to be overcome before you could convince Americans to outlaw (or almost completely restrict) the procedure. I see people talking a lot about the shortcomings of the women making the decisions, which sounds far more like people wanting to be punitive than having compassion for the unborn. Not making accusations against you, but again reminding you that what people write and say portrays a lot they might not intend.
So, environment matters – thus proving my point. Have him grow up in a crack den instead. Why not?
Adoption is distracting you – you could have had your own child and brought him up properly. We are discussing people who can NOT bring up children properly.
That's good …I think just "Jimmah" is sufficient…It pisses him off…
Yea. It works good both ways. I thought maybe there might be days you would want a choice. ;^)
I see your point total is going backwards…Better get back to Stormfront …Bring that total back to "Fuhrer" level….
Karen: I am sorry that your personal experience haunts you so, I do recognize that abortion is not right for all women. But your assumption that humans were "designed" is a personal one. Life can happen through animals too but I suspect your would not argue with the idea of spaying or neutering your dog just so that is can fulfill its design.
Designed implies a designer and not everyone agrees with your assumption. I won't insist you have abortions if you don't insist that no one can. No one has a right to impose their religious or personal beliefs on another. That is what makes this a free country.
We are talking about a woman's right to kill her children. The age of the child is almost irrelevant to the child. If pro-choice proponents can't grow up and discuss the issue honestly, there in little point in having a discussion. Those of us who have killed our children via this procedure , at some point have to face up to this simple fact. Men can be pretty callous but even they feel the reality of this. People always have and always will do away with unwanted children. Both male and female lives are taken. Shouldn't the victim of a homicide be the most important person in the discussion? All the euphemisms and the dismissal of the identity of the boys and girls who die trivializes the matter. I am not big on the government ,especially the federal government being involved in many things but at least an honest discussion is essential. If you can't even handle a simple ad about the topic how can you ever have a real discussion of all facets of the issue. This is not just about a woman's right. There are the rights of the boys and girls whose lives are taken and even the father of the child must understand the real ramifications of their actions because someday they will probably think a little deeper about what they actually did.
Then legislate government mandated contraception, esp the welfare mom's.
No, you are missing the point. I AM discussing people who cannot bring up children properly. His crackhead parents did not kill their child, they put him in a better place. Our society has been enriched that a human has not been killed for having hopeless parents. There are alternatives.
I find the "I had an abortion" picture of the young woman quite disturbing. I don't know if it's the fact the young woman is not wearing undergarments, the fact that she's dressed and posed provocatively while standing in a schoolyard or if it's the placement of the words across her pelvis where her pregnant belly would have been.
The unspoken and very troubling message I get is, "I had an abortion and I'm trolling for another one."
This argument is not unlike the one where a black person is 3/5 of a person because the law says a black person is 3/5 of a person.
If you are referring to the section under the US Constitution, you did not read it very carefully. Hint: those opposed to slavery wanted the number in question to be zero.
Lorben
"CHOICE" would not be the term I would use in this case…..How 'bout take yor pick??
"Pro-Life" vs "Pro-Choice" doesn't really tell the true story.
Let's start a truth campaign to re-name "Pro-Choice" to what it really is: "Pro-Death".
In that way the playing field is really level:
"Pro-Life" vs "Pro-Death"
catsden, "I wonder" how many pro abortion people are vile, vicious racists.
Damn….I am so having trouble watching my words! You are so right!
You are a smart good woman…Worthy of admiration…Good nite…Gotta feed the horses..Catch you tomorrow…
Was that before or after he said he would not want his daughters "punished" with a baby?
Give them a scratch on neck from me!
I read a comment somewhere about how Tebow's just a kid, being manipulated by his parents/adults.
So . . . uh . . . what is an aborted baby?
Sorry everyone, I was sure I tested it.
If you copy&paste it in address bar it works.
We need a shirt with an ultrasound of a puppy in a womb. No doubt of what it is, a clear 3D image of a puppy. Then put the words "would you have her sucked out and thrown away?" printed under it. Also the words "its a puppy, right?" Maybe the pro-deathers would get the message. Maybe not.
Oher could have been helped by a black woman. Race doesn't matter – decisions do!
It's quite affecting. Quite a good photo.
It worked when I tried it that way. It was beautiful and makes me baby hungry. My husband and I hope for grandchildren in our future soon. Two of our daughter will be married within this next year and one daughter is having a hard time finding a suitable suitor, if you will. Hopefully he will show up soon, she is the daughter that would give us a ton of grandbabies, I pray her dreams are fulfilled. ;^)
"Abortion is not right for all women"
Yeah, some women feel bad when their unborn babies die. Others don't care. I can understand the first reaction, but the second is pretty damn callous.
I'm not so upset about abortion being legal – however, I am upset that so many women encourage each other not to treat it as a big deal. "Why should you feel bad? It was just some tissue," they say. But it's normal for women to care about their offspring, whether or not they make it to birth. This is why many crisis pregnancy centers offer post-abortion counseling – they know that those women who acknowledge that they have just killed their babies are going to need therapy.
Let the pro-choice movement offer a heartwarming story of a woman who had an abortion and was thereby able to become a great ice skater, teacher, doctor, attorney, astronaut, musician, actress, etc….
Interesting how the picture of the chick with the "I Had An Abortion" nightie has half of her face cut off. I wonder if the model insisted on that.
But at least we get a view of some nips, and a sultry tilt to her hips. Nice to see that the "pro-choice" "pro-woman" contingent is not above a little T&A to get their point across.
/sarc
Abortion is here to stay.
Now go over to the table in the corner and play with your sack of pencils.
We have work to do.
GOD, liberals are SO STUPID…
That's it in a nutshell isn't it?
A pathetic attempt at slander and smear from someone who knows nothing about football.
My goodness, this is why the "pro-choice" movement comes off as so closed minded and regid in their thinking. Tim's mother certainly had the "right" as her life "may have been in jeopardy for medical reasons". She decided otherwise, which by the way….. was HER CHOICE. This is a family sharing a wonderful story! Why can't everyone be happy about it? So if you are PRO-CHOICE, why aren't you celebrating this as well, as it is a beautiful story?
Think long and hard about that one, OK?
Hey 'thefonz', how was your childhood? Based on the hostility illustrated by yourself, in your posts, I am lead to assume you experienced a "poor upbringing." An upbringing that possibly involved you being left in a "closet" while your parent raised you "like an animal." Also, the condescending tone you use, and the disrespectful intentional misspelling of the name "God" suggest a deep lack of respect for anyone, yourself included. This lack of respect you ail from probably stems from grief. The same grief you still feel over the loss of the father who abandoned you to your negligent, abusive, "crackhead" mother. Lastly, as for logic; I can reason, and I do, therefore I can find no logical reason for murdering the only truly innocent forms of human life that exist on this planet. Rather than just killing them, why not put money and other valuable resources into saving those children and parents who find themselves in hopeless circumstance. Is any of this true, TheFonz?
Pro-Choice? If Pro-Life is the term for abortion opponents wouldn't the more correct term for abortion supporters be……Pro-Death?
Tebow is the quarterback "nutjob", it's his job to call a play. Nutless Joe, you have the problem with rage!
I'm not sure what you're argument is here. There is no law saying black people are 3/5 of a person (it's in the Constitution, but has since been amended), and that has nothing to do whether a fetus is the same as a baby. We certainly prosecute people for neglect when their children are harmed or killed, so if there is no difference between a fetus and a child, how could there be any legal difference for neglect whether the child is born or not? Plus, who's going to be the first person to advocate jailing a 15 year-old for having an abortion (or doing something to cause a miscarriage) because she was afraid of giving birth?
I would disagree with the Virginia case because the baby was born and presumably breathing on it's own. It's a weird case, but being attached doesn't equal not being born (in my meager understanding of the law).
The sign in black and orange (Abortion on Demand and No Apology) is VERY creepy (just above the proud abortion female) held by a black gloved hand all in all it pretty much sums up these people CREEPY and UGLY souls! Looks like something out of a really cheap Halloween horror flick!…..but unfortunately these folks think it is OK to Kill unborn children.
What kind of message are you trying to convey with the picture at the end with the girl's nipples sticking out?
"That is called a straw man argument. I haven't seen anyone promote pregnancy registration."
No it's not. If you make the case that a fetus (even one an hour old) is the exact same thing as a living baby, then ALL laws must apply, including what happens if your baby dies mysteriously. The fact that people are not advocating pregnancy registries is irrelevant because that would have to be the law if you got your way. Just because you're not comfortable addressing it doesn't make it a strawman argument.
"Irrelevant. Whether a child is grieved has no bearing on her humanity."
Again, you're completely wrong. My point was precisely that people treat fetuses differently than babies. If a child is grieved more than a miscarriage (or an abortion), then that is proof people see them as different things.
"You are comfortable with put an individual's humanity to a vote, then?"
No, I'm comfortable leaving a fetus (an unborn life inside a mother's womb) in her and her doctor's hands. Your the one advocating getting the government involved to stop her from doing what you don't want her to do. My way doesn't require a vote, yours does.
"This is actually a position fully consistent with the pro-life position (not to mention Jewish teaching)."
Then it's flat out wrong. You don't "murder" an innocent child because the circumstances are inconvenient. If a fetus is the same as a baby and abortion is murder (and miscarriage is negligent homicide), then there are NO circumstances where it would be OK. Saying so is moral relativism.
"The child, and the child's death, are both very real. No belief or faith is necessary."
So once again you're back to criminalizing the death of a fetus (unborn child). That's fine, but it changes the argument and you would see the support drop from a small majority to a vast minority. I disagree with your position, but as long as you're upfront about everything and it's consequences (i.e. eventually having to punish miscarriages as well as abortions with criminal penalties), then I have no beef with you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and has the right to petition the government to change the law. As I said before, I'm only interested in the debate being honest.
I had always heard that those opposed to slavery fought to get the number where it was. They believed that it would eventually lead to the abolishing of slavery, but was the best they could get from pro-slavery politicians.
The problem is a double standard where they rejected a church add expressing tolerance as too contraversial, but this radical conserative nonsense group get their ad shown.
Another prolem is the irony of naming your hate group after your love for family and then sacking a bunch of your employees [who almost certainly have familys to support] while shelling out a fortune for propaganda.
And there's the problem of imposing your decision not to have an abortion on everyone else.
It's true what they say, Conservatives only care about children *before* they are born.
actually it'd be more appropriate to call "pro-life" anti-choice.
Heartwarming though you people seem to feel this footballer's story is it is not in any sense typical. Most time when there's a warning that mother and baby might not survive you are not going to get the "happy" ending of an evangelising sport star.
The real flip side to thisstory would be from beyond the grave of a woman who took this mother's gamble and died in childbirth. There's a lot of them to chose from, but they cant talk, being dead and all.
No mention of football at all.
well the ad is more controversial than ads which were rejected as too controversial.
The double standard is annoying if nothing else.
You want the number of abortions to go down? Support proper sex-ed [not fantasy "abstinence" programmes] and contraception.
Problem solved.
Some facts about genocide:
Stalin’s regime is said to have killed 20 to 30 MILLION persons.
The Manchu government is said to have killed over 20 MILLION persons.
Hitler’s regime is said to have killed 6 MILLION Jews.
Pol Pot’s regime is said to have killed 1.7 MILLION persons.
American women have killed FIFTY-ONE million of their offspring!
I didn’t see any mention of religion, in fact it might be true that there was an absence of religion.
I'm sorry to say, Randy, I don't remember. Didn't Obama make that "punished" comment on the campaign trail? He repealed the Mexico City thing about a week, maybe less, after his annointment.
Your idiocy knows no bounds. About 17% of abortions are teens. The far majority of abortions are women over 20. About 60% have given birth to at least one child before an abortion.
For the far majority, knowledge isn't the problem; personal responsibility is.
You are embarrassing yourself with your profound ignorance.
Imposing your decision not to have an abortion on everyone else? What's next–banning birth announcements in newspapers? The it's a boy/girl signs on front lawns? More proof that liberalism is a mental disorder.
I'd say there's a problem with you being stupid.
BTW, many pro-life organizations offer an array of support services for women and their baby.
"Fewer and fewer productive people are being born." The Demmunists are using their welfare-statist programs to create more and more slackers. If you have to keep blaming Blacks for all the things you're unhappy about, I will concede the point to you that Demmunists have targeted Blacks for the entirey of my life, and I'm sure longer than that, for takeover by their government plantation. You have to figure that, when a whole race of people has been targeted, generation after generation, to be co-opted inevery sense of the word, just to build a voting block, something is going to go wrong. More than just a handful of non-Blacks have yielded their wills to the same stupidity. Is the time long over due for plantation-dwellers of all colors to leave Massuh? You bet.
"No it's not."
Yes it is. No one has suggested establishment of pregnancy registration, as you described. You claim to want to keep the debate honest, so stop pretending your debate partners have proposed such an idea.
"My way doesn't require a vote, yours does."
Again, your wrong. Your way puts the fate of an individual to the vote of one person, her mother. My way protects her life, regardless of how any number of people may care to vote, one way or the other."
Your attempt to find inconsistency in the pro-life position (where there is none) concerning crisis pregnancies, where the mother's life is endangered, has been tried by many, but there is just no there there. A mother has the right to defend her life. If there is a reasonable apprehension on the part of a doctor that a pregnancy will kill the mother, she may act in self-defense. This position is not predicated by, but is reinforced by the fact that her death will lead to the unborn child's death, anyway.
You still haven't given clear explanation why you believe that an arbitrary reason, such as breathing through nose or mouth, or complete clearance from the mother's birth canal, somehow instantly confer humanity upon a child.
Actually, if you compare the popular support for the pro-life position, to that for the previously cited homosexual ad that CBS rejected, you will find the pro-life position is much less "controversial" than the pro-homosexual one.
Oh that's easy. Pro-lifers promote defense of the innocent. Pro-lifers promote protection of an individual's life from the malicious whim of another. That's why I am anti-abortion, pro-death penalty, and pro-self defense with lethal force.
Fetuses are "red shirts" that never get to play ball……
Yes, and happy is the end-all be-all purpose of the lives fortunate enough to be born before others.
Have another tab of Soma.
The pro-abortion crowd already knows this, but the fact bears repeating, time and time again. Thank you, Chidog.
"19 and Counting" Reality t.v. show about the Duggars. The newest child was born at 25 weeks by emergency C-section. See on Radaronline.com. With modern science, how can Pro-Abortion proponents push abortion for babies that hospitals save every day?!
Oh please, what a cop out. Who doesn't know that sex causes babies? Yet, sex-ed is going to prevent that? Last time I checked abstinence prevents pregnancy 100% of the time, where birth control can't brag of that statisic. I should know. Even married couples have unplanned babies.
i like the nipples
The pro-aborts cannot budge an inch on the illusion of a baby outside of her mother's vagina before it's a person. If they do, they know they've lost. But this fiction leads to this situation: It's perfectly legal for an abortionist to force a breach birth, and suck out the baby's brain if the baby's head is still in the mother. It would be murder, though, if the abortionist stabbed the baby in the heart.
If you want to ban abortions for everyone [not just your fellow anti-choicers] how is my statement incorrect?
I dont follow your leap to birth announcements, so I'm not sure what your argument is.
I'm nobody really… Just a wife and mother… But in 1983 I had an abortion, even though it was against my "belief system". I was scared, alone and trying to divorce a coke-addicted husband. I made the easy decision, – just flush my troubles away. It was HORRIFIC.
Don't think for a single minute that I've ever forgotten what I did. I've been honest with my 4 children. Explained why… and how my decision was ultimately NOT right for me. But I learned too late. What would my little one have been? (I always think of him as a little boy for some reason) Could he have been a "Tebow"…or The best President our Nation ever had? Would he have been a good father.. A good friend?
I've had nightmares… asleep and awake. I made the wrong CHOICE. I knew it before ever getting off the damn table.
Mrs Tebow, I admire you and your decision. I admire Tim for his strength and I even admire the typically bias CBS, (which is a brownie point for my viewing).
effective contraception and knowledge will yes.
Abstinence is only reputed to have failed a couple of times in myths, but abstinence programmes fail all the time.
I'm sure there are racists on both sides of the issue. The fact remains, though, that those who first agitated for the practice of abortion in the US were, almost to a wo/man, racists.
A Pro-Death Commercial… : "Pelosi and Pals"… (damn, now that's kinda funny… sorry)
We need more people like Tim to be role models for our youth.
The permissive relativists, with their elastic creeds keep trying to drag our culture into the gutter.
We need to keep fighting to turn this tide of "anything goes" and reclaim our country's future.
Stop patronizing advertisers that sponsor programs that glorify or try to rationalize abhorrent behavior. That will drive these disgusting cultural messages off the air and out of our lives.
I keep mental note of those that sanction such garbage on-air and try to avoid purchasing their products and services when I shop.
oh catsden, blah blah blah. Always with the "were you there to help the unwanted child with fetal alcohol syndrome" strawmen arguments.
ABORTION IS MURDER and the fetus has no choice.
Wake up if you think that 1.5 million murders of unborn innocents a year is just offering a "helping hand" to a troubled woman. In a world where contraception is everywhere and most often free, where sex ed is happening in 3rd grade, and all the et ceteras to go with that, where, according to you and other moronic libs, "if we JUST teach children how to have safer sex this problem of unwanted pregnancies with go away"— WAKE UP, Teen pregnancies HAVE ONLY SKYROCKETED under this new "regime" which you have forced into the classroom.
GO TIM TEBOW. catsden, you're a dunce.
Yes! Why doesn't PETA defend human animals?
I volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center so I minister to the "young ones" and their mothers regularly.
Speaking of diversions, you never answered my question:
Are YOU trying to adopt any of the orphans you're concerned about?
I've always wondered why hideously ugly women (personality or appearance) think they're going to need access to abortion.
Not equivalent. Dating services are not "advocacy" for "LGBT rights."
Great argument.
I mean, who ever heard of a baby going on a shooting spree?
So, why do so many "pro-choice" people support killing innocent babies, but have sympathy for a serial killer?
The Confederacy said the same about slavery.
What's the ratio of drug-addicted women vs. healthy "career"/college-educated women seeking abortions?
Two things interest me about that "drug-addled welfare women NEED abortions and you're all meanies for not helping the babies they chose to have" argument. One, the existance of babies born addicted to drugs means their mothers made the choice the arguer doesn't approve of–to be pregant for nine months and then give birth. Two, no one ever cites stats about what percentage of women seeking abortions are addicted to drugs/alcohol or poor or uneducated vs. what percentage are sober but going to college/in college/starting a career/etc. The huge welfare-collecting class in this country indicates to me that most poor/uneducated women are choosing to have their babies. Unless these "pro-choice" advocates are really agitating for poor/drug-addicted women to be forced to abort (and I suspect they are), their argument makes no sense.
"Ignorance" we can deal with…people work to advance beyond ignorance everyday, and usually successfully…
"Stupidity", however, is destroying people and weakening the country in wholesale lots…its the foundation of sand that allows "progressives" to build their houses of cards…
Then when it all explodes in their faces and comes crashing down, they blame someone else for their failures…currently its Bush…
As has been said before…the very essence of "stupidity" is doing the exact same things that failed before, and expecting a different result…
This is my kind of anti-abortion activity! If you have a solid argument and can convince good people it is wrong, they won't do it and legal or not doesn't matter.
However, right now leftists have most of the abortions. Not only do I not mind this, I encourage it. If there was some way to tell if a woman going into an abortion clinic voted for obama, I would create a foundation and start handing out checks.
So leave it legal but make a good argument, then good people won't have abortions, and the leftists can kill themselves off. It's win-win.
So if we are going to use that reasoning as a legitimate argument for every social problem, then I guess we need to stop the cure for cancer since it's here to stay. I guess we can stop all that that feeding the hungry, too, since the poverty is here to stay. Oh, brother…..
Your words and lack of reasoning are not unlike Hitler's.
I believe that a woman whose life is in danger should have the choice, and should make that decision very carefully. It's a beautiful story that she chose to have the baby, and that she lived to tell the tale. Sadly, that is not always the case. But is the pro-choice stand here that Tebow's mother SHOULD have killed him, just on principle?
Perhaps a more controversial ad would be President Obama's mother or someone who had no good reason to get an abortion say that she CHOSE to follow through with her pregnancy, and aren't we all glad she did! I think the majority of abortion issues center around women who choose abortions even when their life isn't in danger. The fact is that EVERY one of those 51 million abortions since 1973 has ended a child's life, a child with infinite potential, whether the mother's life was in danger or not.
Thanks for your excellent Doc.
I happen to know many pro-lifers who have adopted drug and fetal alcohol babies. My wife and I have adopted 3. They are adults now attending university and contributing to society. How many have you and your fellow abortionist adopted?
I knew you were a Natzi from your frist post. Say hello to Hitler when you get to Hell.
Fabulous blog post!
Persons – not property.
Personhoodusa.com
Personhood Now!
As though having a child would preclude one from using one's talents to become great?
You're kidding, right?
Blackgenocide.org
Nearly 1,500 black babies killed every day in America!
Are pro-lifers _still_ pretending they think specks are people? This isn’t rocket science. Speck. Person. Speck. Person. Two different things. My cat has a brain the size of a walnut, and even she understands the difference. Presumably, pro-lifers have a larger brain capacity, so they can’t plead ignorance as an excuse.
Remind me, why should I care if liars and crazy people hurl insults at my character? Almost no one thinks zygotes are the moral equivalent of born people, because that’s crazy talk. Pro-lifers could be honest and just say “I think abortion is bad, but it’s not anything like killing a born person”. A few of them actually will say that, and good for those people for ignoring the hyper-PC pro-life dogma (on display here) which says they should be screaming “MURDER!”.
Not being locked into such dogma, I can be honest. A zygote/embryo/fetus starts with almost no moral worth, and it gradually gains moral worth as it grows. That’s what most everyone in the world believes, even if they won’t admit it. That’s why pro-life beliefs can only get traction in extremely religious areas; you have to smother honesty and common sense with religious dogma for pro-life beliefs to have any chance.
to the fonz
a fetus is not a human the way that an orange blossom is not an orange – no flower no orange – don't be a fool
the "fetus" has a heart and a heartbeat days after conception
were your children a "fetus" or a unique – created – human that even before they learned anythiing showed your own character imprint and physical features?
Kill them all. Kill them all.
A bad life isn't worth living. A child-hood in poverty is worse than death. A disability means hardship and only the perfect should be allowed, for the good of the imperfect person they should be killed. It's difficult to be gay. It's difficult to be a minority. It really sucks to be ugly. Only beautiful people should breed.
It really takes some effort to turn this into something inherently moral and caring.
I play MMORPG's and one of the funniest things was… if you were an evil cleric there was this quest (since clerics are healers) to become a cleric. So you ran around the evil town and collected some things and turned them in and did another step of the quest… it was all to help the poor people who lived beneath the city. There was a disease problem. So you ran this quest to "cure" the disease and it ended up what you were doing was creating a poison to "cleanse" the poor by killing them all.
And this is fantasy game-play right, with over the top, capitalized, Evil. The creepiest, nastiest, thing that the game designers can come up with.
And here, in these comment threads we have, over and over, people honestly arguing that those with difficult lives are better off dead.
Solve the problem by killing them all.
What some of you are advocating is that it's okay to have sex and then if you happen to get pregnant, then let's get rid of the unborn child which essentially is murder. How can you abort a child before birth and not call it anything else.
What are we teaching our children? That we aren't responsible for our actions. That it's okay to kill an unborn child because their inconvenient to society or to the person pregnant. Wow. I applaud Tim Tebow. He is a great role model. Teenagers need to see that there can be alternatives to abortion that won't result in killing their unborn child.
So, your solution is to exterminate what you consider undesirable humans?
And where might you be had your mother taken such a stand?
But there are not millions of families willing to adopt a child in america every year. Boldness, You did your part in preventing abortion by providing an alternative, but how many other "prolife" families have adopted children?
Wow, I guess it's another "scientific consensus" then, that a "zygote/embryo/fetus starts with almost no moral worth "because almost everyone believes that. So, if moral worth increases as life progresses it seems logical to me that it probably decreases at some point as you age (say 40-42 years or half the average life span), thereby making a solid case for euthanasia… what moral worth does an old person lying in a hospital bed using valuable health care resources really have? For that matter, maybe our federal government could come up with a "moral worth rating" for each citizen based on health, productivity, and obedience to law. That way, we could just get rid of those of us in our society who we can decide (with a majority consensus, of course) aren't morally worth keeping!
How about shifting the responsibility to the women and men who have unprotected sex? These irresponsible individuals should bear the financial costs of abortion, as well as the moral. Although it does take two, if the woman cannot be more discerning of who she beds, then she should have her tubes tied as a condition of abortion. The price paid by these people should be high enough for them to consider what they are doing before they do it.
"……our federal government could come up with a "moral worth rating" for each citizen based on health, productivity, and obedience to law. "
Precisely what the Reid/Pelosi/Obama Health reform is all about.
Couldn't agree more. Post birth abortion (murder) is the clear choice of the "pro life" movement. Kill em all and let god sort em out. Why is it the pro choice movement doesn't murder people, just the "lifers"? I always wondered that. Must be that god told them to do it.
Tim Tebow does not stand as living proof that abortion is a choice too far. He stands as living proof of the choice that his mother was able to make in private with no outside interference.
All ready did, but thanks for asking
There is one, the pre-born human has no human rights, the post-born human has some human rights. By that i mean the government has decided not to allow the pre-born any rights
"This was hashed and rehashed in the post on Saturday…But suffice it to say .. abortion is THE sacrament to the leftist church of statism (satanism, I'd say) and the sooner we can elect people who will vote to defund it, the sooner this barbaric practice can be minimized ." (Laugh Out Loud)
Beautiful essay Kyle-Anne. Abortion and all the rest of the satanic baggage ('gayness', euthanasia – the whole lib litany) is just destroying us. Our only hope is a critical mass realization among the population of our catastrophic predicament and a consequent returning to God.
Flatliners.
We believe life to be sacred at conception, and yes I have adopted 3 special needs kids. They are grown now and attending university, also making a positive contrabution to society. If you mean to say that you can't have a pro-life opinion unless you've adopted a child that should have been aborted, then by your own faulty logic, you can't speak to the issue either unless you have adopted. How many of you pro-abortionist have adopted?
If a fetus isn't human, Fonz, what does it become as it gets older? A canine? You were a fetus–what did you become–besides all the other things you've demonstrated yourself to have become?
Why do you think it is the responsibility of those who didn't make the babies to take care of the babies? Childish argument. How about a little personal reproductive responsibilty or is that too much like adulthood? It's as easy as this–if you don't want babies, don't f***. I know that's kind of hard for a Darwidiot to follow but just repeat it to yourself as often and as loud as you need to in order to understand it. Until then, quit taking your self-loathing out on those least able to defend themselves against people like you. Congratulations, you're an Illiberalist/Regressivist plantation pineapple.
Pro choice or Anti choice would be better, and more accurate.
Otherwise explain why so many "pro-life" types support the death penalty…
Those opposed to slavery who did not want slaves to be counted as 3/5 of a person had nothing to do with their perceived rights as human beings. It had to do with keeping slave states census counts down so they would have less political power to keep slavery legal. Obviously those who were pro slave rights ( abolitionists) considered slaves to be 100% human beings. Understanding history is key to understanding today's issues
Truth is truth whether everyone believes it, or no one. The truth will ALWAYS prevail. Defend the lives of the innocent and helpless, vote pro-life politicians, and spread the word of the abortion holocaust. BE AN ADVOCATE for those who have not opportunity to speak on their own behalf!! It’s time for a new generation’s emancipation proclamation. We WILL defend the lives of the unborn! God help us.
If "doing something to cause miscarriage" were really possible why would we need abortions? Miscarriage is an entirely different issue than elective abortions and it is an insult to those of us who have suffered miscarriages to equate the two. In reality there is very little women can do to prevent miscarriage and nothing you do causes miscarriage. If you do something to try to kill kill your growing baby it is no longer a miscarriage it is an intentional or induced abortion.
I must clarify that doing something to cause a miscarriage is attempting an induced abortion and is no longer in the category of a miscarriage. Having suffered 6 miscarriages, I object to this disingenuous line of arguing. Miscarriages are INVOLUNTARY, usually very sad , most mothers who suffer miscarriages would do anything to keep their baby alive. You obviously have no real knowledge about the realities of miscarriage. Please apologize and deist.
Was that directed at catsden?
If so, I agree with you.
Actually, Pam Tebow's doctor was insisting she abort Tim since her life was in danger. However, like any good mother, she put Tim's welfare ahead of her own.
So, Pam Tebow deserves to be celebrated.
@GordonGoblin is simply expressing the selfish secularist argument "Me, me, me."
Yeah, atheists want to keep those numbers hidden lest their "Religion is the root of evil" argument utterly collapses.
Yep, those were his exact words.
So do condoms, but liberals still claim they prevent AIDS. LOL
Actually, don't statistics show an increase in rape and murder in the years following 1973?
My sympathies for your losses, but I didn't argue anything disingenuous, nor do I have anything to apologize for. If you have a miscarriage, there are a myriad of reasons why it could have happened. Some of them include stress, over-excercise, and doing unhealthy things in addition to natural causes (many of which we can't currently explain). It's also possible for a woman to intentionally induce a miscarriage (or certainly to attempt to). So if a fetus is the exact same thing as a baby, how do you not call in the police to investigate if there is an unexplained miscarriage? If a baby dies, they don't take your word for why it happened.
Of course it wouldn't happen because we don't view a fetus as the same thing as a living, breathing baby you can hold. That doesn't mean there isn't value to them, nor does it mean abortion isn't abhorrent in most cases. I've been very consistent, and very careful to watch the language I use to defend my point because I have a great deal of sympathy for women who've suffered losses (including ones who've had abortions they regret). But the argument that a fetus is the same as a baby is something that virtually no one shares if you take it to it's logical end (as I did). However, people use the argument to try to strengthen their case against abortion. You can't use it when it benefits you, then disavow it when it doesn't. It doesn't help the cause, nor does it help people find ways to cut through the very difficult discussion.
Again, you have my sympathies. My intention is never to dishonor women who've dealt with tragedy, and I work very hard to make my argument on the issue clear and respectful.
That's not true. You can engage in all kinds of risky behaviors that can have detrimental impacts on your fetus. Some women have complications so severe they have to be put on bed rest to avoid miscarrying (or delivering far too early). True, there's no exercise or food that will instantly cause a miscarriage (and some babies are born despite horrible, destructive behavior by their mother), but there are definitely things that increase the risk, especially in mothers who are already at risk.
[...] Read More: [...]
"Yes it is. No one has suggested establishment of pregnancy registration, as you described."
Really, the "I know you are, but what am I" school of arguing is pretty tired. You say a fetus is the EXACT same thing as a baby. I say if it is, then all rights and protections must be applied to it, you say nobody's suggesting that. Either you're so passionate about the issue that you can't see straight, or you're intentionally being obtuse.
"Your way puts the fate of an individual to the vote of one person, her mother."
Gee, that's such a cute turn of the phrase. {/sarcasm} No, my way allows a woman whose body and family is affected to make the decision with her doctor. No one is voting. It's kind of sad that I have to argue such trivia in your desperate attempt to avoid the real point of my argument. Your way involves strangers who don't know the woman, and will have nothing to do with her or her child to decide for her. If you can't see the difference between the two, then see my above response.
"A mother has the right to defend her life."
Why? Is the unborn baby attempting to murder her? If you see someone driving drunk, do you have the right to run them off the road because they might kill someone? It's a dumb argument. Most risky pregnancies don't come with a, "If you do this you'll die" guarantee from the doctor. Both women I knew who had complications had little indication beforehand. So if they had decided (based on vague warnings from the doctor) that they didn't want to take the risk, there wouldn't have been enough "proof" for someone like you.
As to your last point, I have no need to argue that point. I don't think humanity is the issue. When it is inside the woman's body (not as in partial birth, which is just a lawyer's attempt to find a loophole) it is her decision to make. If surgery can be done to remove a healthy baby (and someone is willing to pay for it), then I would say it is an acceptable solution. If it is not, you simply can't force a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want or fears (rationally or not). If people want to argue for a certain date a woman can abort by, I can get behind that, but with the understanding that it's an arbitrary assignment of life when we have no proof that it is really significant. The only real determiner is when doctors say the fetus is viable outside the mother's womb. At that point, it doesn't need her to survive, so it is it's own life.
Yeah, more people think homosexual "marriage" is more evil than abortion. So, you're right on that score.
Des,
you are wrong to say that “virtually” everyone who follows logic will conclude that a pre-term fetus not the same as a full term fetus (baby). Your argument that miscarriages should be investigated is laughable. Miscarriages ARE investigated by the woman’s doctor. Women who know they are pregnant, and have a miscarriage, often have tests run to determine if they could’ve done something different. A healthy pregnancy can withstand marathons, horseback riding, working, driving, walking, lifting, squatting, standing for hours, swimming, laughing, crying and flying.
It’s a sad and simple fact that millions of conceptions do not result in a live baby. The successful completion of a healthy pregnancy is the culmination of millions of cellular miracles! Lots of us have had pregnancies that did not result in a baby. That some women are relieved by these miscarriages is indicative of their poor choices prior to conception. Hopefully they learned to prevent unwanted conception. Those of us who were wanting a baby will forever wonder who that little person could’ve been.
So failing to adopt those who could have been aborted mean folks cannot take a stand agaisnt abortion? By that logic, failng to adopt children abused and almost killed by their wicked parents mean one cannot take a stand against child abuse or murder. Or unless one marries the abused woman, one cannot take a stand against abuse of women by their husbands.
Want to go there?
Not all pro-lifers support the death penalty.
Let me make it accuratre;: pro-choice to murder one's own unborn baby vs anti-choice to murder one's own unborn baby.
While we are at it let's apply that to the rest of our laws: pro-choice to murder one's own child or spouse, vs anti-choice to murder one's child or spouse. Apply that to stealing, rape, etc.
See where I am going?
"It's true what they say, Conservatives only care about children *before* they are born. "
Then explain this genius: how come conservatives most often are the ones who give time, money, even their own sacrificial selves to help others?
Heard of World Vision? Or Samaritan's Purse? Or Harvest? Or Compassoin? And the list goes on by the zillions.
Groups run by conservatives to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, look after the widows and orphans, shelter abused women and children, look after pregnant women, relieve those who are suffering from disasters, etc., etc.
Liberals got nothing on conservatives when it comes to going out to help others or giving money to support groups that do that.
ICan't remember who said something along the lines of , " 1 death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic"
I teach a class to 24 junior high school students. I have 8 empty chairs set aside through the year which no one is allowed to sit in. At the point in the year when we cover respect for life and others, I point out that in the year they were born, there was 1 abortion for every three live births which would equate to 8 more peers for them.
Abortion is the ultimate in cheapening life. The ultimate in fostering a disregard for humanity. Killing for convenience.
It was Joseph Stalin who said that. And he turned it into an operating principle. One death is a face and a voice and a heart and a mind and someone you can relate to. A million deaths is just a big faceless, voiceless number. The "feminists" are quite desperate to prevent even one face from being put on the victims of the abortion holocaust. Loving mothers and sons have no place in their vocabulary or in their very narrow universe.
Fetuses are short lived, they are soon replaced by babies swimming in a warm pool of comfort, until that fateful day of slaughter!!! I wonder how many pro abortion advocates will volunteer to have their lives canceled when technology is developed to turn back time? Maybe they all will, to make room for those who don't want to be aborted!!
"I wonder how many of you pro-lifers are there to adopt a baby born with an addiction to drugs or physical or mental disabilities"
Right on, catsden! And the logical conclusion is babies born with addictions or physical or mental disabilities should be killed before they're born? But why stop there?. And why stop at babies? If someone becomes addicted or disabled later in life, let's off 'em! For their own good.
"Really, the "I know you are, but what am I" school of arguing is pretty tired. "
Attempting to caricature your debate partners argument, then responding to the caricature, is a dishonest debate technique. I thought you wanted to be honest about this.
I was going to re-address this issues point by point, but I see you've started resorting to ad hominem, so I won't waste anymore of my time.
That is what I have been arguing with some friends, that Embryonic Stem Cell research & derived drugs are a form of canabilizm. Along with other involontary used of human body parts
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2255053/...
"So, why do so many 'pro-choice' people support killing innocent babies, but have sympathy for a serial killer?"
IMO, many of them are misanthropes engaging in reaction formation.
I was not trying to caricature you (I'm pretty sure I didn't), and there are no ad hominem attacks (i.e. attacks based solely on insults). You continue to claim that I'm making a silly argument because "no one" is saying police should watch pregnancies, but you're missing the point (hence the obtuse comment) that police already watch babies, so if they are the same as fetuses then you are arguing for the EXACT same protections for the unborn.
Whether you think you're arguing for miscarriages (or criminal punishment for women who seek out abortions) or not is irrelevant. You're arguing that their unborn are exactly the same as ones who are living. That means they have the same rights and same protections, which means the police HAVE to be involved. It's an ugly road, and one I have no interest in going down. I know I'm not going to change your mind (nor you mine), but I'm trying to tell you that despite the numbers of people who say they are against abortion, there is a line that the vast majority of people won't cross.
Fetuses are different from living babies and almost everyone feels that. They say they're not different to make the argument, but if we're forced to treat them the same way (i.e. punishment for even accidental causing of death), then the differences become clear. The reason honesty is important is not just to make a philosophical argument. It's also the reason the Pro Life movement hasn't made up any ground in 35 years (and in some ways is losing ground). People make impassioned pleas that don't move the other side because they don't see how far reaching their demands could be (just like people who want stricter gun laws or any other encroachment of freedom). Yes, abortion is awful. I just don't see any way to make it go away without risking enormous intrusion from the government that would cause horrible pain to individuals who need to make the most difficult decision in their life.
The impetus in the 1870's for changing the common law abortion statutes, which in following Canon law prosecuted abortions from "quickening",i.e. when there was physical evidence of pregnancy, to the more stringent prosecution from conception was due to Mendel's genetic experiments in the 1850's, which provided scientific evidence that what occurs at conception is the creation of a new being genetically differing from both parents. Canon law was also changed to reflect this new scientific conclusion.
This put to rest the Aristotelian theory of "ensoulment" occurring at some point later in development.
It is ironic that abortion apologists are so fond of quoting Thomas Aquinas on his natural science speculations, which adhered to 13h Century understandings of embryology, but ignore his moral teaching that abortion at any stage was murder.
The scientific facts matter here. What's happening in the womb does not change depending upon the mindset of the woman involved.
So you're also advocating that if a woman (or her doctor) believes her life is in danger, then it's tough luck (because her mindset is irrelevant). Likewise, if a 12 year-old is raped, her mindset shouldn't make any difference. She should be forced to undergo an unwanted pregnancy. If you find out a woman desires an abortion, then she would have to be jailed (for the protection of the fetus) until she gives birth so she can't harm it. If she has a miscarriage, the police should be involved just like they are with any infant death.
If that's your position, then fine. You are welcome to believe that. As I've said repeatedly, just be honest about it so you can see who is actually on your side in the debate.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by texasaggie1, Larry Agresto, Vince Humphreys, BrianD82, C Slad and others. C Slad said: RT @adamsbaldwin: RT @BigJournalism "Former Fetuses Unite: So What, Really, Is the Problem with the Tim Tebow Ad?" – http://bit.ly/dk1aOM [...]
-A woman "desires" an abortion, as Fredrica Matthews-Greene says, "like a trapped animal wants to chew off its leg." Our current law requires NO efforts to determine whether a woman is acting out of irrational desperation, or under coercion by an abusive boyfriend or parent. You good with that?
-Miscarriages are a tragic, but natural occurrence. Abortions are an artificial, unnatural and bloody action which occur in a place of business after money changes hands. Don't think law enforcement will have difficulty sorting out which is which.
Try working on that honesty thing a little harder. The gaps are showing.
My mistake.
I was assuming that you were honestly seeking clarification; but obviously you are more interested in trotting out Planned Parenthood and NARAL hypotheticals that are older than your polyester disco duds.
-If you were interested in being "honest about it," you would admit that your first instance is BS, as nobody's EVER disputed the life of the mother exception.
-As for the 12-year-old rape victim, do you really believe that compounding the trauma of rape with the trauma of an abortion is what she "needs"?. A two-dimesional solution.
Amen
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