My former Time colleague, Neil Leifer, took this iconographic image of Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston on May 25, 1965, in the immediate aftermath of the “phantom punch” that ended Liston’s reign as heavyweight champ and, effectively, his career:
Liston later said he’d thrown the fight out of his fear of Black Muslims, who had recently claimed the former Cassius Clay as a new convert.
What do you think?
Follow Us on Twitter
Subscribe via RSS
Got a Tip?
115 Comments
I think Ali won.
I don't think Liston took the fall.
Personally, I have always admired and respected Ali.
He converted because he didnt want to fight in Vietnam , chickensh!t !
I think Liston tanked
Also, that is not near the greatest sports photo in history. Maybe the greatest boxing photo in history.
Like him or not, Ali was a worthy champion. He probably did more the sport of boxing than any other single person. Never cared for his politics, but there are probably thousands and thousands of sports stars with whom I do not agree politically.
Hmmmm, looks like he connected with his right but the left didn't afterwards.
Interesting to see the photo vs the video. Reminds me of what people say about Kennedy vs Nixon debate on radio vs tv.
Right on…But, I wish they had the willpower separate their talents from politics!
the only thing that ali was scared of is little vietnamese men. he was no hero, only a coward!
As a person who never saw the fight, and am pretty much neutral on Ali, it did seem a little strange. Ali never really touched Liston. The first knock down appears that all they did was touch gloves, and Liston fell down. Did not see the Second Knock Down touch, just Ali dancing around like he won the fight before the Ref decided who won. Pretty strange, and yes I would have to say that it looked staged. Like I said, not partial to Ali either way (always did see Boxing as strange, I mean two guys get into a ring to beat the crap out of each other), but he does remind me as the prototype of the spoiled sports stars we have today who seem half thug and half athlete.
There's nothing wrong with avoiding a draft for an unjust war.
Ali refused induction into the military, therefore some other poor bastard had to go in his place. That other person was most likely poor, black and didn't want to go either but probably not for Ali's reason. ("No Viet Cong ever called me nigger!") I despise Ali for that. I despise people who admire him for that.
The Greatest? B.S. Tyson would have literally destroyed him, at the least broken his ribs, maybe even put him into a coma. That would've made good pay-for-view.
Isn't it Ironic that a man changes his name over Slavery, then adopts the name of one of history's most notorious slave owners?
Or at the very least, Tyson would have bit off his ear
I was too young for the Ali experience. I wasn't even born when he first won the title in this fight.
My memories of him come mainly from the cartoons and toys. I have since seen several fights, or portions of fights.
I *did* see Tyson though…and he was awesome in his early days before he got involved with Robin Givens. I think that celebrity took something out of his training. I am not blaming Ms. Givens…I am saying that he stopped caring as much and preparing as much after he got involved with her.
So, anyway to get off the tangent I seem to be on:
I agree Tyson would have chewed up Ali
Love him or hate him, Ali (aka Clay) was the perfect anti-hero for his time. Much of the establishment of the day wanted him to get his comeuppance, and time and again he won. As a kid growing up, I loved that about him. I was against the war at the time…even when I was there. It wasn't until years after the slaughter of thousands of innocent Cambodians and Vietnamese did I even have a bit of understanding of the magnitude of what happened. I have seen other slower videos of the fight, and it appears that Ali did connect with the left. He won.
I think it's a great sports photo, but conveys much more emotion in black and white rather than in color.
Ali was by then too a big celebrity to risk being killed in battle. Odds are he would have been stationed in Germany like they did to Elvis or be in Special Services entertaining the troops.
In my youth, I argued with someone (a guy) that Cassius Clay could beat Muhammad Ali …how's that for naivety and truly being a dumb blond?
I'm partial to the Miracle On Ice….1980 USA Olympic Hockey. Although one single photo can't paint the picture in the way the Ali photo does.
If we are going to bestow "greatest" and "sport" in the same sentence boxing is one of the last sports I'd look at. I just can't help but think of every rigged outcome.
Let honor be honorable. USA USA USA USA. Yes AL. I do believe in miracles. I'm praying for one more in November.
…and he did so as a convert to the theopolitical personality cult which ravaged Africa as no one else had before nor has since. Eighty percent of the millions upon millions taken by Muslims as slaves died or were killed in transit. Two thirds of those taken were women, to be used as sex-slaves. The remaining third were males taken to be castrated (because Arab Muslims believed black men were too sexually excitable to be left intact) and put into military labor battalions, or , if they were lucky, to guard the harems made up of female slaves.
And if a female slave bore a child, it was often killed out of hand. A new adult slave, after all, was far cheaper in the Muslim trade than the cost and bother of a slave's child being raised within one's household.
And that's why Arabia has no large black population today, while North and South America both do, despite the Islamic slave trade having lasted over a thousand years.
Who knows, back then when we were wee lads, there was alot of Organized Crime infiltration of sport gambling..
Liston was a dog and a big favorite…
Mucho dinero was made betting on Mohammhed Cassius Clay Ali…..
Idol spectulation..now..
That iconic photo catches an instant – a fraction of a second in time – as Ali (Clay at the time) famously curls him arm and scowls at Liston. I watched an HBO (I think) documentary about that fight and that night and Al Leifer recounted clicking away and freezing that moment in time. In other words Ali is NOT standing over Liston holding a pose. It was a passing moment.
On the otherhand, and at the risk of being called a racist pig – I never liked Ali's flair for self promotion even though I greatly respected his ability as a boxer. He had a BIG MOUTH, but he did back it up.
He spawned, and we now have generations of self aggrandizing athletes who haven't acheived a fraction of what Ali did, yet they're all over TV and in our faces constantly.
See, when you talk and behave like an adult , we thumb you UP…
Yeah…you're a racist like Ali was self-deprecating…..But a poignant one( racist) for sure…..lol…
There is not enough money on this planet to get me to step into the ring with either one of those dudes. Within seconds, I would be severely injured at best, probably dead.
The power in the fists of a heavyweight boxer is incredible. I don't see much of a blow from Ali, but I have no doubt that it wouldn't take much of a swing to mete out the kind of punishment that Liston displayed.
An afternoon of Boxing and the Three Stooges means naptime for me.
Ali ushered in the new era of showboating sports stars. In the age of the "me generation" I think this was inevitable, but I never cared for it. The current president continues the theme.
like I was saying below the photo was just a fraction of time, a single movement in a series of movements. That is born out by the video, so ya, I agree with you. It illustrates the context. Context is EVERYTHING in a debate, an argument, in life.
But if you point that out, you're called islamophobic by thoughtless leftists.
I like modern athletes who act like throwback athletes.
Jim Brown would score and flip the ball to the official. No dancing or spiking.
Babe Ruth or Joltin' Joe would hit the homer then circle the bases and trot to the dugout, no "Little League" celebrations.
When Bill Russell dunked he didn't do a chin-up on the goal and preen and glower for the camera.
Ali opened the doors to the T.O.'s, the Iversons, the Reggies and all the other self promoters. I liked it better the other way.
I'd get in the ring with ANYBODY for a MILLION $$$$$$ (or less!). They'd have to chase me around for three minutes for ten different rounds but I'd do it.
I have to disagree. Have you ever watched the Ali/Frazier fights? Ali/Foreman? Ali consistently proved that if he couldn't beat you with his strengths, he'd beat you with YOUR weakness.
Tyson, on the other hand, had one strategy: punch you in the head. He lost to Kevin McBride, Danny Williams, Lennox Lewis, Buster Douglas, and Holyfield (twice). He beat Razor Rudduck (twice) and Larry Holmes, all on close decisions or TKO.
But, he DID knock the dog$#it out of (literally) dozens of people that nobody has ever heard of before or since. But that does not make him the greatest ever. You become the greatest by beating the greatest, and Ali did that. Ali went 56-5 during Boxing's greatest era, and Tyson went 50-6 with most of those fights being complete no-brainers as to who would win.
Well said – agreed.
A lot of athletes, professional and amateur, express themselves after a big play with that same open mouth cry of victory rage as if they'd just knocked out the Champ. I find it disgusting and revolting. It's the ultimate it's-all-about-me moment. God is not to be trifled with, however. With great irony, Ali ends his life in the exact opposite condition physically to that which he was in as a young man. And what's left is the spiritual kindness that millions of people feel towards him as a result of his long past boxing accomplishments and various charitable endeavors–and, of course, a sense of pity at his present physical condition vs what he was when he was young. In other words, Ali is finishing exactly the opposite of the snarling victory moment.
There's a backstory to the photographer seen between Clay's legs. In a special done by, oh I don't remember–A&E Biography or ESPN Classic, on Mr. Liefer told the story of some kind of rivalry with this guy. I remember Mr. Liefer getting a warm and fuzzy feeling about getting his "rival" in this picture. Can anyone elaborate?
Just add my 2cents, the picture of Y.A. Tittle kneeling down on the field with helmet off and head bleeding is a pretty iconic, also done by Mr. Liefer *I think*
One can put up with "self promoters" who are "exceptional." Unfortunately our Progressive friends have worked tirelessly to encourage "self-esteme" and to reject "American Exceptionalism." As you said Jamesb, I liked it better the other way.
Neil Leifer's photo of Ali knock of Liston is certainly iconic.
But Leifer said this following photo was the best photo he ever made.
http://www.life.com/image/ugc1047822/in-gallery/4...
The film of John Stephen Ahkwari finishing 1968 Olympic Marathon may be the greatest sport image ever captured.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a6DX_m87y0
Knowing what I know now about the dangers of Islam period. I would not doubt he threw the fight.
I dunno…….this one's mighty close
_________________
http://www.amazon.com/Secretariat-Belmont-Stakes-...
———————————
relive the dream http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-KvaeuIIsw&fe...
I'd definitely do it for a million, or less as well. What's the worst that could happen? They catch me (wouldn't be too hard, as I'm middle age and overweight) and knock me out?
Liston most definitely dumped their second fight. No question. The real question is whether he took a dive in the first fight as well.
OT: To Jamesb; Subj: My mind (what little is left) was wandering.
I agreed with your opinion at this post. I find I often like your opinions. For fun, no particular reason other than how often I like your posts, I looked at your back comments and discovered:
1- You have been posting to Big sites for 83 weeks (did you know that?)
2-Your very first post is remarkably consistent with your current post.
3-I have decided you are the epitome of "American Exceptionalism" because:
a- you have a prodigious work ethic
b- you are consistent
c- you are persistent
I wish there were some "Prize" but all you get is a DB attaboy, and thanks. Please keep posting.
I gotta go with Jesse Owens _saluting_ the US flag while he was on the podium in the Berlin games.
Or training the Army boxing team.
I watched this video over and over again. I did not see a punch in any way shape or form from Ali. I saw his right hand PUSH the back of Liston's head down and Ali's left miss altogether. I think a dive is quite possible here.
I really respect and value everyone's opinions,
It is interesting to see the input, and side of an issue that people take.
In my post at the top of the thread, I wrote: "Personally, I have always admired and respected Ali."
Now I'll expound upon it.
I admired Ali for his athletic ability.
I respected him for taking a standing. For standing up for what he believed in, and letting the chips fall where they may. I don't believe Ali was afraid of Vietnam, or anything else for that matter. He did what he believed was right for him in his heart. Do I happen to agree? No. But that is not the issue.
Muhammed Ali, did more for the art of pugilism than any other person in history, with the exception of Jack Dempsey. Ali, in concert with his foil, Howard Cosell, honed their "schtick" to a fine art. They took boxing from "sport" to entertainment.
Further and beyond that, what Ali did for Black athletes, the rewards are still being reaped today.
Yes, I think it is the greatest sports photo.
It captures triumph, defeat, excitement, passion, was a championship match, and was physically impressive to look at to boot. This one had it all, including Ali, who went on to become an icon. Metaphor for life. Wow.
.
Personally, I like the picture of Bruce Jenner winning the Decathlon in 1976 or the "Miracle on Ice" photos.
That was a wickedly quick punch with a twist of his wrist right as it landed making it a KO. It went over Liston's left shoulder right square into the side of Liston's jaw.
You also have to remember that Ali had really pounded Liston constantly in each rounded all but the previous one where Liston had rubbed his the astringent used to treat his severely cut face into Ali's eyes, and blinded him. Ali was good enough to take a pounding and stay out of the KO punch range from Liston during the previous round, until his eyes cleared up.
I watched a show on this with the slo mo last night.
I am no real fan of Ali's personal beliefs and neither was an uncle of mine, married to my aunt, who was a champion light heavyweight in college during the pre-WWII days when boxing was king in college. My uncle won all of his fights by KO or TKO. He was not a boxer but a powerful puncher and so very much admired Ali's boxing style and ability. As a highly prejudiced man, against blacks, he thought Ali was by far the best boxer of all time.
Hey Brother,
You make a very accurate point.
But then again, you are a racist pig, just like me. hahahaha
Would it not be nice to watch a ball game and not see some jackass athlete preening before the camera for doinf exactly what he is paid to do?????
You know, I have missed the last two superbowls because of work and I feel I have not missed too much.
Sad, very sad, for a former athlete to think this way…..
Destroyed? Not a chance, Ali (56/5), Fraizer (36/4), Foreman (76/5) and Tyson (50/6) were all top boxers but if you are going to span the years, check out Rocky Marciano, (49/0 w/43 KOs), he retired undefeated.
you're an ass.
A little factoid under-reported and widely overlooked about that Kennedy-Nixon debate that had nothing to do with "Nixon's make-up" or relative debating skills of the two: Nixon was forced to choose between safe-guarding Classified information and losing the debate, or calling out Kennedy and winning the debate while allowing a then-pending national security matter to be disclosed. Both candidates had been fully briefed on the pending operation shortly before the debate.
Kennedy won the debate and the election, then went on to make changes — especially regarding location — of that operation, moving it to the Bay of Pigs. During the forseeable disaster resulting from the less-advantageous location, Kennedy refused to authorize air cover that would have prevented the deaths of countless Cuban patriots, then shifted the black eye from himself and his advisers, and the 'blame' elsewhere, by firing CIA Director Allen Dulles (who had argued for the original plan).
what he said
So you were ok with Bush and his National Guard "draft dodging"?
History repeating itself over and over. Democrats own slavery in America, fighting a war over it and then turn the situation over itself to…enslave the same people all over again.
This is the history our educational system keeps hidden from our youth. This is the history we are doomed to repeat, because the powers that be want to enrich themselves on those they deem as "lesser races".
Ali was a complicated guy living in a complicated age. I have no hard feelings towards him. Now is is disease-stricken, bled finical dry by the Nation of Islam and his "friends", and living out his last days a shadow of his former self. I hope they are in the quite and contentment he deserves.
To me, he is an American Hero. Granted, an imperfect one (depending on your opinion and principles),but still, a hero.
And a true American.
God bless him and bring him peace.
I listened to that fight on the radio. I got awfully tired of of Clay's "Who's the greatest?" ad nauseum after it was over. He always struck me as a self-aggrandizing jerk.
Well, I would be, if conservatives would just admit that Vietnam was pointless. Instead, they glorify it, even though their political leaders did everything they could to skip out on it.
Tell that to all those who lost loved ones . We were there to fight the spread of communism and thanks to the left they are here now in America and even have the White House. So blame people like yourself . Lenin called you useful idiots . Do yourself a favor and join a tea party and get on the right side of history ,
The Arabs SAID they thought the black men too excitable…really the had the envy Freud became famous for discussing.
His big mouth was a part of his genius. I don't think everyone else should emulate him. He used it for a psychological advantage, not for being as loud as possible so everyone would notice him as you see the sports stars and fellow motel guests do.
Thank you very much for the kind words. I say what many of us are thinking, nothing more. I'm very thankful to Andrew Breitbart and all the fine folks at the "Bigs".
As far as a "prize"may be concerned – Mr. Walsh is allowing me to post some thoughts about the situation in Drug War in Juarez, right across the border from my hometown – I'm working on that and should have a post in the next few days. It's a little intimidating, but will be rewarding and challengeing to move to contributor for a few posts instead of commenter/poster.
Mexico is an unfolding tragedy of massive proportions and it WILL effect us – the "how much" is the question. Thank you.
I have seen this "KO" punch at least a dozen times and at different angles. The punch was thrown while Ali was fading backwards and it looked more like a slap than a punch. I give it 90% Liston took a dive. How could a man built like a grizzly bear be KO'd with a slap? Especially considering that Ali beat up Frazier so bad in that 14 round TKO rematch that Frazier's face was a mass of swollen knots and he could not even see. A lot of boxing pundits said Liston could hit hard but did not have the heart of a real champion. Say what you will about Ali, but the man had the heart of a champion.
Ya, I'm tired of people celebrating every little thing. Just play and when you really win something – like a Super Bowl – celebrate. OchoCinco, T.O., many of the biggest offenders have won NOTHING, no rings.
I'm a big fan of Emmit Smith; he accomplished a multitude of things as a player (three rings) and has been rewarded as a Hall of Famer, yet he still credits all the great Cowboys players he won with and has been a role model for kids and is a good man by all accounts. He's just one of many, I'd like to see his approach to the game and approach to life emulated, not the chest thumping preeners.
Oh ya, me too. I'd win a "belly bump-off" but not the fight. I could run, but not hide – but the payday would be sweet.
Oh, tea parties don't have any useful idiots. Just keep on doing the Kochs bidding…
Not even close.. .. .. Frazier knocking Ali on his ass..
Aren't you a sweetheart, crowing over a man's physical failings.
Really though, I think it's difficult to blame Ali for his look in this picture, much less "find it disgusting and revolting." He's just participated in one of the most primal acts known to man–beating up another man. Is he supposed to immediately compose himself? He's probably rushing with all sorts of adrenaline.
Relax.
never even knew of the fact that maybe it was thrown…. he didnt even touch him on the 2nd swing, barely on the 1st…wow.
An ironic choice to say the very least.
It always makes me sick when people on both sides of the political spectrum praise JFK. he, like the rest of godforsaken family, was a crook who double-crossed the Chicago mobsters (the same people pulling obama's strings if you follow the money trails) who rigged the 1960 election for him.
His background aside, he has the single worst atrocity committed by the US (naturally its the one he left never talks about) in the 20th century–telling those good Cubans he'd be there for them and backing out like a coward.
Not only that. He basically changed his name from one of those who bought the slaves to those who enslaved them to begin with. The dashiki-wearing weirdos you see in the African-American Studies departments in colleges are willfully blind to this fact, mainly because guilt-riden white Americans are so easy to extort.
I wouldn't say its the greatest photo but the final seconds did produce the greatest soundbite in sports history:
"Do you believe in miracles? YES!"
Agreed. Ali really paved the way for the self-absorbed brats in sports today.
I have no problem with admiring the man's athleticism because he certianly was a great athlete. But don't elevate him to something he's not. I don't know if fear played any part in his deicsion not to go to Vietnam, but converting to islam and claiming to be a "consciencious objector" to fighting in a war (as if those theings weren't mutually exclusive already) was a bunch of slefl-serving crap.
"They took boxing from "sport" to entertainment."
Whether or not that's a good thing is up for debate. In either case, the WWF kinda filled the "fighting as entertainment" niche.
"Further and beyond that, what Ali did for Black athletes, the rewards are still being reaped today."
With all due respect, that's just offensive. Jackie Robinson, Bill Russell, and Jim Brown opened the door for black athletes. Ali didn't do jack.
Well I'm being incredibly biased here, but my Greatest Sports Photo involves a guy in a red #87 jersey catching a ball on the very tips of his fingers in mid-air as a confused white and blue #24 falls in the direction of his gold pants.
I do find sad that the party of slavery and the KKK gets 90%+ of the black vote. I don't attribute this to race, I attribute this to clever cynical marketing, a corrupt education system, and a 'black culture' that plays into the liberal democrat party game of ensnarement by dependency.
If you want proof this is not a issue of race, look at African immigrants, more often then not the ones lucky enough to come here and go to college do exceptional because they don't believe the lie that doing well in school is "acting white" or that government knows best and will take care of them or that the white man is putting them down. They don't believe this BS because they know how bad it is in Africa, and it's not the 'white man' who's doing it there.
Ultimately, race has nothing to do with it, but as long as people identify with racial groups and try to act out a group stereotype then we'll have this nasty idea with us.
Got any links to this information? I really want to know.
Yeah, I've never been a Kennedy fan, and always suspected that Joseph P's stroke was brought on by his sons' – JFK and RFK – double-crossing those Daddy cut a deal with. I think, however, we'd be better off if the mob was Obama's clout, instead of the anti-American globalist crooks like Soros who do pull his strings. Chicago mobsters, at least the old-timers, were capitalists who knew a socialist/communist takeover with a big, centrally-controlling federal government would take the profitability and liberty out of everything.
You're right, that he hung the Cubans out to dry – unfortunately, we did the same thing in Iraq following Desert Storm, leading a huge number of Iraqis to believe we'd supply support when they challenged Saddam Hussein. He bull-dozed their entire population into the dirt, and we didn't lift a finger.
A lot of Republicans do point to JFK's having lowered tax rates, and I don't take issue with that; he was right on that one, and it's an effective political posture to take when trying to argue with contemporary Dems that lowering taxes results in increased revenue to the federal treasury.
You are right about it being an instant in time.
You may have noticed how bad (low) the light is in the B&W film video versus how well lit the still color photograph is. That's because TIME, Inc.'s magazines had the clout to be able to hang big, powerful (BRIGHT!!) electronic flash (strobe) units above the ring. The audience would not have been able to tolerate continuous lights bright enough to light a color motion picture film of the event. But the fraction of a second flash from a strobe was OK.
The fight announcer on the video — who was at ringside, I think — unhesitatingly called it a right, because he saw it, and heard it connect, IMO. Listen, you'll hear it. It's hard to see, because it's so fast, and also because it's coming right toward the camera. But the announcer saw it and called it with no trouble.
Cowboy, I don't see how you can ' admire and respect' a man who changed his 'religion' to Islam, just to stay out of the service! …..
I have always thought that Liston took a dive. The right cross thrown by a back-pedaling Ali comes with only his right toes planted and his left foot in the air. It's all shoulder. We worked out the loss of mechanical advantage on this punch when I was in college and found that it would produce nearly 75% reduction in power at the point of contact. Watching the video frame for frame shows fairly clearly that Liston was already on his way down, and the left, thrown as an after-thought, passes over his head.
I think the most telling thing about the video is the look of surprise on Ali's face when Liston went down. I never thought that Ali knew Liston was going to take a dive, he just looked too wide-eyed and surprised for that to be the case.
Ali's decision to avoid military service left me with a distaste for the man that over-arched any athletic accomplishment he achieved. I think he made a bad choice. I wound up with a limp from Vietnam but at least I still know it's Tuesday.
Best wishes on what is definitely a topic that holds my attention. Please make sure those of us "back here" can find you. Wow, who woulda thunk, Big's as a career enhancement. Go Jamesb Go. And Thank You Andrew.
It was in your misguided youth. I'm sure everybody made a mistake like that at some point in their lives.
Personally, if you'd been talking to me about it, I would've completely bought it. I've got the sports IQ of an amoeba.
Oh, I understand it. And you're right–it's totally primal. And sports today is full of it–the entitlement of the victor to the primal gloat. I don't notice it so much in hockey–hits are given and taken as a matter of course. When the occaisional fight breaks out, it's anger and passion, but it doesn't result in this egomanical victory snarl. When a goal is scored there is an arm pump–not this in-your-face baloney. In general, in many other sports, I guess the days of sportsmanship are gone. In general, the public accepts it–like you. Were it not for God's grace, the irony of Ali's condition, would be tragic. No crowing, that's what I dislike–rather, a dispassionate reflection.
Still not sure this wasn't a cooler shot and a stunning achievement.
==================================
http://picsdigger.com/image/50b2a76a/
TWO MISTAKES IN THE VERY FIRST SENTENCE
Open Thread: The Greatest Sports Photo in History?
bigjournalism.com ^ | Sep. 6, 2010 | Michael Walsh
My former Time colleague, Neil Leifer, took this iconographic image of Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston on May 25, 1965, in the immediate aftermath of the “phantom punch” that ended Liston’s reign as heavyweight champ [ WRONG— LISTON "LOST" THE TITLE IN THEIR PREVIOUS FAKE FIGHT--NOT IN THIS--THEIR 2ND FAKE FIGHT ] and, effectively, his career: [WRONG-- LISTON HAD MANY FIGHTS AFTER HIS TWO FAKES WITH ALI]
This photo of a fake 'fight' is second only to the Che Guevara poster among the wall coverings of the hate-America left.
Your God sounds like a real bastard.
Sonny Liston was managed by Bennie Glickman, a mobbed up fight manager who was a personal friend of Tony Accardo, the boss of the Chicago Outfit. It is pretty much a sure lock that Liston threw both fights with Ali not due to the Black Muslims but because the Outfit told him to. The outfit made a ton of money on the first fight because Liston was so heavily favored. Liston was a monster of a man but he knew that you don't cross the Outfit. The Black Muslims weren't anything compared to the Outfit power. Liston probably used the Muslims as an excuse to cover up the real reason for throwing both fights.
The germans weren't successful,what makes you think you can be?
The crap never ends with Ali.
The Liefer photo you gave the url to was of Ali's "fight" against Cleveland Williams.
Cleveland Williams was SHOT IN THE STOMACH at point blank range by a Texas policeman with a Magnum gun A YEAR AND A HALF before he "fought " Ali. When he "fought" Ali, Cleveland Williams was missing one kidney, ten feet of his small intestine, and had a shriveled left leg above the knee from nerve damage from a piece of the bullet that nicked a nerve on his spine.
And Ali actually manged to "beat" a fighter in that condition.
Well woopdedoo. Isn't Ali wonderful.
And now you put forward a photo of that garbage as "the best photo he ever made."
In my book a photo of a sham cannpt be anything but a photo of a sham. Nothing even remotely "great" about that.
I may sound like a bastard, but there's only one God–and God is not a bastard.
Oh, and Relax.
Ali connected with his right over the top of Liston's left jab. Ali then tried to follow with a left but Liston was already on his way to the canvass.
I thought Ali was a demagogue and a racist. His treatment of Joe Frazier was completely awful. Frazier was just as big a fighter as Ali and yet he was treated as a false Champ. Someday a movie will be made about him (not the metaphor that was Rocky but a bio-pic).
this is a common issue with the war.
yes we were there to fight the spread of communism but we were fighting the wrong communism in vietnam.
those communists were so unlike russians or even chinese communists. america put a murdering pro-democracy nut in power and the vietnamese rebelled.
the tea party, therefore, is very much like the viatnemese communists: fighting against an authority they believe to be improperly installed.
i agree, but sometimes people with tremendous amounts of respect garnered from adoring fans have no choice but to stick up for what they believe in. like it or not they have as much right to say what they think as any of us. it just happens they usually have a microphone in front of their face.
one such example: steve nash protesting the Arizona immigration bill (whether you agree or disagree it was pretty cool he did that)
the party of slavery was called America until 1865. it did not discriminate between democrats and republicans, mostly because republicans didn't exist until 1860. democrats are also the party of women's suffrage, the FDA and the Civil Rights Movement. both parties are pretty much ravaged with bad decisions and full of good decisions.
i'm really tired of the partisanship on both sides. why can't we all just get along? (cliche i know).
why can't we adopt sound, conservative fiscal policies, including limited government while also adopting correct liberal and progressive philosophy, like freedom of speech, religion, private property, tolerance of race and sex and choice. i think that combination is where most American's should fall, but we all seem to drift one way or the other.
*when i say sound fiscal conservatism i am not talking about bush or reagan, but rather increasing taxes on wealthy, decreasing spending and improving infrastructure.
is that you, Don Draper?
Ali's arm seemed to only move a few inches in the supposed knock down "punch". Looked to me that it was questionable as to whether it even connected or not. I'd never seen this before, but looking at this I'm thinking Liston DID take a dive.
You must be logged in to post a comment.