Rifqa Bary is the 17-year-old girl who converted from Islam to Christianity and fled from her family in fear for her life. For more than nine months now, the Islamic machine has been trying to make an example of her, as a warning that even in the U.S., those who try to leave Islam will fail. Rifqa’s entire legal strategy, meanwhile, has hinged on ignoring the Islamic aspects of the case, although Islam’s death penalty for apostasy is the only thing that explains why she is in danger. Instead, her lawyers are trying to obtain for her Special Immigration Juvenile Status (SIJS). And in this yet again her parents’ aggressive and manipulative attorney, Omar Tarazi, has outfoxed them.

This was her lawyers’ objective, the end run: if they could keep Rifqa out of her dangerous home environment and secure immigration status, then it didn’t matter how they did it, as long as the goal was achieved. What her legal team did not understand was the nature of the threat and the enemy Rifqa faced. They were playing by a set of rules that were inapplicable to the challenge they faced. By pretending that Sharia was not the elephant in the room, they were out-strategized.
I remember back last September when I spoke to Rifqa’s Florida attorney, John Stemberger, on the phone and asked him why apostasy was not being introduced. It defined the threat to her life. Without the motive, there was no threat. He insisted that it wasn’t necessary. He said there was no way she would be sent back to Ohio from Florida, where she had fled to get as far away from her father as possible. “No way” would she be made to go back to Ohio, Stemberger said. In order to get Rifqa sent back to Ohio, he explained, her parents would have to open a court case, and in order to do that they would have to admit to some kind of abuse. And Stemberger said they would never do that.
And yet Rifqa was sent back to Ohio, on October 27, 2009.

My point is, no matter how sure a thing is, there’s no such thing as a sure thing. Fast forward to February 2010:
Rifqa’s legal strategy has been reactive, not pro-active. They are being kept busy responding to motions by Rifqa’s parents’ aggressive lawyer, Omar Tarazi, who was chosen for the Barys by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), an un-indicted co-conspirator in a case involving funding for the terrorist group Hamas. The worst example of how Tarazi fooled Rifqa’s lawyers was that he compelled them to agree to a deal have Rifqa plead guilty to “unruliness” to secure dependency, and then reneged on his part of the deal once the guilty plea had been entered. The guilty plea continues to have negative ramifications for those who love Rifqa and have helped her. Using the “unruly” plea as a pretext, criminal investigations are proceeding and charges are pending against the Christian pastors, Brian Williams and Blake Lorenz, who helped Rifqa when she fled from her home.
Now, on Rifqa’s Special Immigrant Juvenile Status, Tarazi has outmaneuvered Rifqa’s lawyers again. Why hasn’t Rifqa’s legal team demanded an investigation by child services into the abuse and death threats in Rifqa’s home? The eligibility requirements for Special Immigrant Juvenile Status demand it. The immigrant minor must not be able to reunite with her parents “due to abuse, neglect, abandonment, or a similar basis found under state law.” All Rifqa’s lawyers have is a guilty plea to unruliness from Rifqa, and no establishment of abuse at all. In fact, in the stipulation to dependency, the lawyers on both sides were at pains to put on the record before the court the fact that the stipulation was not based upon abuse or neglect. To support Rifqa’s abuse claim they’d have to get into Islamic apostasy law, and they don’t want to do that.
John Stemberger, who is still directing Rifqa’s legal strategy, recently wrote: “No lawyer who understands dependency law agrees that seeking political Asylum in the US makes any sense.…Rifqa’s immigration status can be resolved as a Dependent of the State of Ohio without any Asylum claims.”
I disagree. Apostasy asylum should have been Rifqa’s safety. They should be applying for it now. They should have applied for it yesterday.
What Tarazi is doing is running out the clock so that Rifqa is without immigration status when she turns 18 this August. Will authorities then deport her? There is no way of knowing for sure, but CAIR and the Muslim Brotherhood have infiltrated senior levels at the State Department so deeply that it is a distinct possibility. Certainly that new office in the State Department devoted to outreach to the Islamic world and reporting directly to Secretary Clinton might deem it “helpful” to send her back. I think that’s what CAIR and the Barys want: for the whole family to go back to Sri Lanka, which was the plan after members of the Noor mosque spied on Rifqa and told her parents of the conversion. The bags were packed.
And in Sri Lanka, as Rifqa herself has said, she could be killed or institutionalized with no unwelcome scrutiny interfering in the application of Islamic law. But instead of reporting on any of this, the media’s coverage of the Rifqa Bary case has been almost criminal. It’s dhimmi media, for sure. But in the case of the immigration question, I must ask, why isn’t the media even asking?

Take, for example, the Columbus Dispatch, the anti-Christian, pro-jihad home of the compromised reporter Meredith Heagney, who cheerfully donned a hijab and published a whitewashed report when she visited the Noor mosque. The Dispatch reported that the Bary family’s “immigration status has been unclear,” but also says that Angela Lloyd, Rifqa’s attorney, said that Rifqa was an “undocumented immigrant.”
If the parents’ immigration status is “unclear” (which it is not, as I broke the story of their illegal paperwork here), how can Rifqa be illegal? How can her parents be one thing and Rifqa be another, and why haven’t these tax evaders been deported?
CBS News likewise reports that “the immigration status of the parents is unclear” and snarks: “Ironically, Rifqa Bary may not like her parents’ faith, but she may need them for their papers.” And the Associated Press quoted Lloyd noting that her parents were “pursuing their own immigration relief” and saying: “Unlike her parents, if reconciliation fails, at 18 then she is without legal status.”
That’s all the media is saying about the immigration issue. They have shown no curiosity in the larger implications. Rifqa is still not eligible for Special Immigration Juvenile Status, and the clock is ticking.
Her only shot now is apostasy asylum – and a new legal team.






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197 Comments
Pam, who appointed Rifqa's legal team and why haven't any of the more powerful Christian legal groups taken up her cause, like the Thomas Moore Center or the ACLJ? Shouldn't her defense be in the hands of more seasoned professionals who are accustomed to doing battle with groups like CAIR?
Thanks,
Juan Medén
I too am wondering why no one has stepped up to help out… clearly there are much better ways and people to address her legal needs and defense. I am not aware of the laws and court rules in that area… but isn't the plea invalid if the agreement is not adhered too… especially if it is accepted in a court of law? I hope to contiue reading more about this matter. Thank you for your coverage so far as I had thought the matter was over.
This is what happens when the enemy become adept at manipulating our culture and our laws to further their ends.
Sharia law is a violent tyranny on America. We must replace any government officials that are accommodating Sharia, and we need to further stigmatize any defense of Sharia in the U.S. and around the world. This is the battle. We are the battlefield. Live free or die.
Juan and Ian are exactly correct! Christian, at least Conservative, lawyers specializing in these areas should be helping with Rifqa defense. This legal battle has far-reaching consequences for America and for Christianity.
Someone posted the (paraphrased) question, Why is it that, when Christians are being slaughtered with machetes by Muslims, American Christians don't get as upset as Muslims do when cartoons mocking Mohammed are published?
Muslims are battling non-Muslims with absolutely everything they have at their disposal! We either battle to defeat them or we lose rights and lives.
How long before she turns 18? She can then declair herself independent.
Honor killings in this country are hushed up, as one example in Buffalo lawyers deny previous statements of the beheading murderer twisting it as an understandable reaction of being inferior to a woman. That her father's words are not chargable is twisted for I would be charged if I threatened my daughter with death and there is no precident of honor killing in my religion.
I'm just wondering if she is returned to her family and nothing happens, will Geller be back here to write about how she was wrong for her hysterical rantings, or will she just go merrily along without noticing?
That's what I was thinking, too, but apparently that will immediately put her at risk of deportation. I fear that our government will do all it can to aid and abet the parents in regaining custody of her one way or another.
Please explain how this is a relevant or helpful post. She has already been threatened with death, should Pamela just shut up about it??
"Muslims are battling non-Muslims with absolutely everything they have at their disposal! We either battle to defeat them or we lose rights and lives."
That is exactly what's wrong with this debate. This story is not about "battling Muslims" or our rights and lives. It's about a 17 year old girl who had a fight with her parents and ran away from home (with the help of adults who weren't a part of the family). Either she's correct and her father made a threat (which may or may not indicate a likelihood of him carrying it out), or she's making it up (or exaggerating) because she was angry with him.
I really hope we don't reach the day when our kids are given free rein to run away when they think we are being too strict (or just won't give them what they want).
CBS News likewise reports that “the immigration status of the parents is unclear” and snarks: “Ironically, Rifqa Bary may not like her parents’ faith, but she may need them for their papers.”
My God! What kind of person could say this and sleep at night?
I also strongly suspect those that those of Rifqa's legal team are either idiots or they are anti Christian…the girl needs better representation….
How do you know she was threatened with death? How do you know exactly what was said or the situation? Have you ever said something in the heat of an argument that you later regretted (or never meant in the first place)?
I'm hearing a lot of talk about Islam and our future, when the ONLY thing relevant is the safety and well-being of this 17 year-old girl. People need to stop mixing their arguments and deal with the facts of this individual case.
This family's personal problems are not a forum for all of us to monkey-pile on with our fears and political (or religious) ideology.
We are doomed to Sharia Law taking over in our country if we don't get a handle on it soon! They are brilliant at using our system against us as you said….it makes me tremble.
What if she is sent back to her parents is in fact murdered?
Des,
"Either she's correct and her father made a threat (which may or may not indicate a likelihood of him carrying it out), or she's making it up (or exaggerating) because she was angry with him. "
He may carry out the threat? Quite a chance to take given recent murders of American girls by their Muslim fathers and brothers. To site a recent example, a young woman here in Phoenix ran over by her father because she was rejecting Islam. Oh well, what's one more dead girl, right?
That would be horrible. However, we don't rip apart families based on our premonitions of what might happen. The police investigated and there was a hearing. They found nothing to support the allegation or any danger she might be facing.
Exactly when did we start ignoring the police in our quest for social justice? Seriously, did I wake up in Bizzaro-world?
So should we run in and "rescue" every Muslim girl in America? Exactly how many do you suppose haven't been murdered? You take a handful of high profile cases, then decide there is some divine right to mob mentality based on it.
We depend on the police to enforce the laws. The case is being heard in court. Everything that can be done is being done. The hysterical rantings about what might happen are anything but helpful.
"I am sure you would be the first person taking her word for it if she said her Father molested her. "
I'm not sure what you're basing your assumptions on, but rest assured it isn't the facts.
You always listen to a child who says that they have been abused, molested, or are in imminent danger. But if the police investigate and find nothing to support the allegation, you don't have citizens trying to run in and forcibly "rescue" the child from their parents. We have laws for a reason, and I believe in our system of justice. It's not always perfect and people pay the price sometimes, but the alternative is far, far worse.
I think the police and social services should fully investigate. I think every precaution should be taken (which is exactly what has happened here).
I'm curious what you think should happen. Then I'm curious if you'd feel the same if a child told a Liberal teacher that her Christian parents would "kill her" if they found out she was pregnant, so the teacher drove her across state lines to an abortion clinic and paid for it.
Would you consider that teacher a hero too?
My thoughts, too. Why wouldn't the authorities make sure she is safe?
Des,
We all know kids exaggerate, become angry, manipulate to get their way. Having 5 daughters I've dealt with that, even with some of their friends who've come to our family for help.
What do you think the chances are a teen, angry with restrictive parents, would chose to go to another restrictive environment? In other words, Rifqa goes to hang out at a pastor's house? Runaway teens usually go where they can "be free" – like the streets of LA or New York – that is if they don't have any wild friends they can hide out with.
Does our government always act in the best interest of "the kids"? Remember Elian Gonzalez? Being snatched and returned to Castro worked out well for him, right? Remember all the children killed at Waco?
Mr. Tarazi better pray to allah Rifqa goes untouched.
You stupid conservatives are always freaking out about Muslims killing these people or those people. It's their culture! Who are we to decide what's right or wrong?
god you people are stupid.
"Remember Elian Gonzalez? Being snatched and returned to Castro worked out well for him, right? Remember all the children killed at Waco?"
Bingo! I knew that's the kind of people who were so exorcised about this case. Here's a couple of tidbits for you….the government did right in Elian's case (other than the over-reaction with the swat team taking him at gunpoint). He went back with his father, where he belonged. What happens after that is none of our business, because it's their family (even if they make choices we despise).
Waco was a case of a bunch of idiots following a loon who claimed to be Jesus, then had sex with their children. The death cult (who preached the end of the world necessitated all their weapons) killed themselves when they knew they couldn't escape. It's not the children's fault that they were placed in that situation, nor was it the government's fault that the parents did that to their kids. If you're one of those conspiracy nuts that thinks the ATF intentionally burned down the compound and murdered the children, then I know exactly how seriously to take any other comments you make.
"You stupid conservatives are always freaking out about Muslims killing these people or those people. It's their culture! Who are we to decide what's right or wrong?"
Some comments just leave one speechless
If she does, will everyone here apologize for smearing his good name?
Who says their not?
There aren't a great number of facts to attribute to this case. Therefore, we, as a nation, should act based on what facts there ARE.
1. We can't POSSIBLY know what's in this father's mind.
2. We DO know that Sharia law supports this idea. Death to apostates is PART of Islam. Frankly, its one of the defining characteristics.
3. In court proceedings, we listen to testimony and give more or less credence to the witnesses we find to be more credible.
4. The "state" almost always errs on the side of caution with children. ESPECIALLY if there's the potential for abuse.
5. Based on the relevant facts I just laid out, it's better to be safe than sorry.
Islam is an evil, insidious religion that plays upon the small and weak. The name means "SUBMIT" and that is what the Koran requires of it's adherents. If people won't submit and convert, they're to be killed. It says the same thing about an apostate, but it's to a greater degree.
Des, you should learn before you speak.
Gee, is "every Muslim girl" claiming death threats from her family? That's news to me! It appears to be, based on facts, that Muslim girls rejecting Islam are the victims of honor killings. Call them a "handful of high profile cases" if you want, but that is the reality.
To be perfectly clear, I would feel the same if some wacko Christian sect was honor killing any daughters or sons leaving that sect. If the Amish start running down their kids with their horses and buggies, I'm all for the protection of those Amish kids who chose to become "outsiders" and are threatened with death.
Seems to me this is a practice – honor killings – found only in the Muslim community. Let me know if you can cite "high profile cases" involving Jews, Christians, Hindus, Amish, etc here in the US.
"… it's their culture!"
Yes, Anon, killing IS their culture! Killing their children, killing our children. Killing YOUR children. Even killing YOU.
Who are we to decide what's right and wrong? We're a society joined together and bound by LAWS, including those that say murder is wrong! Maybe in your empty-headed world, it's okay to kill a girl because of her beliefs. Not in ours.
"5. Based on the relevant facts I just laid out, it's better to be safe than sorry."
And whose decision should it be as to when that choice should made? Yours? Are you setting yourself up as the final arbiter of right and wrong?
Funny, I thought that's what our legal system was for. I guess we should just ignore them when we don't like the results, eh?
Let's underground railroad this thing. I've got a spare bedroom and I imagine so do many others. Move her somewhere safe away from her parents and the law. The government ruined Elian's life. They will end Rifqa's. Let he run out the clock until she becomes a legal adult at age 18 hidden away from harm. Even if it means a tough life of constantly moving to stay one step ahead of those hunting her it's better than the alternative.
Here's what I think should happen (with a disclaimer that I am neither lawyer nor Child Protective Services expert): She should be allowed to #1) become an emancipated minor, and #2) seek some legal means of her staying in the U.S., be it political asylum, or some kind of visa, etc.
With respect to your example of the liberal teacher, I'm not going to debate hypotheticals.
To moron anon;
I guess we shouldn't worry too much about it when they kill you.
… Ah, nevermind.
What is the point of a free country founded on the unalienable rights of the individual if we won't even take the time to defend one threatened girl?
(Yes, I know it might be a false story, but we must put all of our energy into CONFIRMATION)
Oh dear, Des. You know nothing about Shariah, or the concepts of taqqiya and jihad, do you?
Pretty sure 'anon' was being sarcastic.
Not everyone who wants to protect Muslim apostates does so because they hate Muslims, you know.
Why not join us in protecting this girl's life, if indeed it is threatened?
anon-
for quite a while now you have been trolling this site, throwing bombs,
and cowering behind the Guest setting.
Your posts were mailny full of crap-
yet they where harmless- you where a bug-
BUT THIS IS A NEW LOW!!
How can you justify the murder of a young woman for her faith?
or because she wants a boyfriend?
or any reason.
YOU ARE SICK AND A COWARD!
I do hope we meet face to face one day!
I will break your jaw, its MY culture.
Social comments and analytics for this post…
This post was mentioned on Twitter by CO2HOG: via @BigJournalism Running the Out Clock on Rifqa Bary While the Dhimmi Media Sleeps http://bit.ly/c45Jd0 #tcot…
even if he was,
this was hardly the time or place.
Not to mention this fits right into his trolling history.
If it was a joke, falling flat doent even come close…
Isn't she a "Christian" girl now? Isn't her conversion to Christianity the reason for the death threats by her family?
I have been trying to follow this sad case for some time and have found it hard to get more detailed information than what is revealed here.
The hyperbole of the author in writing "CAIR and the Muslim Brotherhood have infiltrated senior levels at the State Department so deeply" without providing links or supporting information does not illuminate our understanding of the legal proceeding at all. It's just provocative.
Cant she slip into Canada?
Des,
"(other than the over-reaction with the swat team taking him at gunpoint)."
Wow, seems like a pretty severe over-reaction you're citing!
If I understand you, you believe that Cuba is such a free country that Elian's father would never be threatened
by the government? You give absolutely no credence to the family's assertions that Elian's father had not only agreed , but was anxious for, Elian to have a chance for a better life here in America? Given the Castro's abysmal record on human rights, you're certain they would never,never force anyone to do anything against their will?
"If you're one of those conspiracy nuts that thinks the ATF intentionally burned down the compound and murdered the children, then I know exactly how seriously to take any other comments you make."
No, I don't think the ATF intentionally burned down the compound, thereby murdering all the children. I do think the end result was the same – they all died! Right? I certainly believe there had to be a better way to handle the situation that would have resulted in the kids rescued and alive. I'm not an expert on the correct methods, but we do have lots of people who are. Patience and calling in others for their expertise might have resulted in a completely different outcome.
Since you're throwing around insults and defending the indefensible, I assume that you are one of those wackos who think those kids are better off dead than living another hour in that Waco compound, right? I'll know better than to take anything you say seriously because, obviously, you are for the government saving kids by killing them!
Tell you what, don't infer a bunch of craziness into my comments and I won't twist your comments into nut job stuff either.
Wow. How do you know what the allegiances are of any one here? How is your little diatribe not just more hate? WTF?
jld, Exactly right! Good point that Des continues to her as a "Muslim girl" when Rifqa calls herself a Christian! What, she doesn't have the right to convert to Christianity either, Des?
Des,
I noticed you didn't answer my question:
"What do you think the chances are a teen, angry with restrictive parents, would chose to go to another restrictive environment? In other words, Rifqa goes to hang out at a pastor's house? Runaway teens usually go where they can "be free" – like the streets of LA or New York – that is if they don't have any wild friends they can hide out with. "
I'd bet the odds are slim to none!
The fedgov is not supposed to deport people to countries where they stand a high risk of being killed for any reason. However, I'm inclined to doubt Holder will regard that as a factor.
Worse yet, he might.
Are you willing to place your life on the line, betting against her being killed?
I wish you had to be this girl for a day. Then we'd see how smug and unfeeling you were about her fate.
And when making the "stupid" remarks, remember that most psychologists say that people who are namecalling are really placing their own personality traits onto others. I can give you references…
And yet you are willing to decide that we are wrong. (I reject your use of "we".)
Apparently you like to just castigate everyone to the right of you. You also apparently like to ignore everything else, even if you can't refute it.
Yes, that's what the legal system is for. But the islamists shouldn't be allowed to manipulate our system.
You are a FOOL, Des_, and by fool, I mean "someone who refuses to see". You think that Islam has NO bearing on her safety? Go and look up the Saudi punishment for thieves. Then again, go look up the term "honor killing". While I understand that this is all too much bother to you, and you don't care one typed word about her safety, be a little more honest about it all, wouldn't you? Your fake sympathy and NIMBY-ism are just more examples of why liberalism is as it always has been fundamentally unconcerned with the well-being of anyone besides the person advocating it.
How are you protecting this girl's life? Seriously, other than commenting about it on a message board, what are you personally doing?
I prefer to leave it up to the family and the authorities involved instead of trying to make myself (or my personal beliefs) part of the story.
If he is doing so, which he isn't, he's just as much got a right as you do. He states, in short, "The law has overlooked compelling evidence — that is, the nature of Islam." You say: "Nothing to see here! There is no threat! La la la la la!"
Look, this is a dumb comment and we both know it. There is no way I can put my life on the line over this. To ask me to commit to it is silly. Neither you nor I (nor Ms. Geller) are involved in this case, so other than checking out the facts and bringing attention to the situation if we feel there is anything untoward happening, our opinions (or or lives) have nothing to do with the situation.
Try stepping away from the hyperbole and really examine the facts.
He can't answer the question, because you've sat his butt right on the horns of a dilemna. If he admits that Christianity is as restrictive as Islam, then the girl running to Christianity makes no sense; if he admits that she sees Christianity as liberating, then he has to deal with the ramifications of what that says about Islam. In short, I think you can add Des_'s head to your wall.
I might know as much (or more) than you. Then again, it's irrelevant. I'm not making a decision on this case (and thankfully none of the people here are either). The police and courts are involved. The girl has a lawyer (which is a heck of a lot more than most 17 year-old girls in trouble have). Maybe instead of trying to blow this up into something it's not, you should stick to the facts of the case. You have no idea to what level the family ascribes to Islam or Shariah law (obviously it's not strict since she had permission to be a cheerleader).
On the other hand, it reveals your inability to do a Google search on the subject.
Heheh. I love it when people expose trolls as being massively ignorant.
And you are a nut-job. What does her family situation have to do with Saudi punishment for thieves?
Geez you people are unhinged. Quit trying to make this case about Islamic extremists around the world. This family has their own beliefs. Perhaps they are extreme, perhaps they're not. The point is, you don't know but you're assuming you are right anyway. It's a pointless exercise to guess at their actual religious beliefs, then extrapolate if you think they might murder their child over them.
Then you put the cherry on top by calling me a Liberal and saying I don't care about her safety. Seriously, could you be any more of a dufus?
I'm just curious, what have you done this week to ensure her safety?
My little diatribe is based on the history of anon's comments-
Even if it was a joke poor taste doenst beging to cover it.
I did not speak for everyone, just for myself and the many others that are sickend by someone making light of "honor killings"
WTF?
TF is that you are an tool- and an outright idiot if you dont see something wrong with the idea of murder being okay.
Ignorance and hate speech has it natural punishments,
and one of those is often a swift kick in the a$$.
Remember that-
How do you define me as a troll, and how has anyone shown me to be ignorant? People are making assumptions based on virtually no information, then saying if you agree with them you're a troll.
It's like I fell asleep and woke up on the Daily Kos.
Des wrote:
===
That would be horrible. However, we don't rip apart families based on our premonitions of what might happen.
===
So Des, as long as dad manages to molest his daughter or step-daughter without leaving physical proof, you want that child to be forcibly returned to dad, in handcuffs if need be. Because if a child is unable to prove abuse, she has no legal way to escape it. Except suicide. Wait, probably illegal as well for a child.
What you want is a child-molester's paradise, at least as long as those molesters are parents or guardians.
Des wrote:
===
You always listen to a child who says that they have been abused, molested, or are in imminent danger. But if the police investigate and find nothing to support the allegation, [...]
===
So what the child *says* actually carries no weight of its own at all — only what the child can *prove* means something. In other words a child's word really means absolutely nothing, and the child is really more like a domestic animal or a slave than a human being. A parent can molest a child or promise her she will kill her soon in a murder-suicide plan, and the child has no legal way to escape her doom of further molestation or outright murder.
Well… as I said, a paradise for child molesters and other child abusers.
And here we have your argument in a nutshell. This family is "Islamists" whose only goal is to manipulate our system. Of course if they were a loving family who were trying to get their daughter back, I'm curious as to how you'd tell the difference from the cheap seats.
I'm pretty sure I never said, "La la la la la," but I could be wrong. {sigh}
I never said there was nothing to see here. I said there are a lot of people who know very little about the specifics of the case who are trying to tie it into the bigger problem of Islamic fanaticism. If you can show me anything other than her claim that one time he father threatened her (which is still not verified by anyone), then there will be something else to see. At the moment, the only thing to see is a lot of people using this family and this girl as a prop for their particular ideological soapbox.
You want to take an underage girl and keep her away from her family by hiding her in your spare bedroom?
Yeah, there's NO possibility for a problem there.
I would be fine with your solution. Address it through the courts and find an answer. Just stop with trying to make this family into a metaphor for Islamic extremism (at least until they actually do something extreme).
My example wasn't a hypothetical. It has happened numerous times. The question is, if it happened to you (which is hypothetical), would you be OK with it?
Well, concerning Waco I'm wondering just how long we're supposed to let a criminal (an extremely well-armed one) continue to molest children with impunity while the government waits outside asking him nicely to stop?
As for Elian, he most definitely belongs with his father. Your opinion of what would be better for him is completely irrelevant, since you aren't his family. You can make all the rantings you want about Cuba, but we don't kidnap children from their families because we think they can be raised better by our government (or distant relatives our government decides to hand the kidnapped children to).
You're a moron. Nobody has added my head to anything, nor provided me with an argument I couldn't answer. I'm playing with my child. Is that OK with you, dipsh!t?
I'm curious about something. Why do you continue to take posts and instead of replying to them, move to a new area to bring them up again? Is it an attention thing? This is like the fourth time you've done it. You know it's OK to ask me a question where we were discussing things instead of moving the conversation to a different place every time.
Anyway, I have no idea if the pastor in Florida had a restrictive home or not. I don't know what his house rules were, or how he would go about punishing her if she disobeyed. Since she's not his kid, he can't legally touch her without committing a felony. That kind of gives her most of the power, doesn't it?
Frakking troll.
You think Google is your answer to cutting through the BS and finding facts? Good luck with that.
Could you please (for once in this thread) actually present us with some facts of your own, instead of insisting your opinion is the only legitimate one?
Look at the cute troll! This post is so stupid, I'm debating whether it is satire or not.
Yeah, it's their culture, but it is also our legal system genius.
I think we have to keep in mind that this is one girl. She has received an enormous amount of attention and donation of services. There are millions of at risk 17 year olds out there who aren't getting any attention for their problems tonight. I'm OK with making sure the right thing gets done here (as much as we can), but all this over-hype screams that people are more interested in what the case says about their personal beliefs than about the girl herself.
I'm curious as to how many people who are just devastated that this girl might have to go home (and possibly into harms way) will be going to a homeless shelter later tonight to donate clothes or a meal, or lose sleep over any other girl who doesn't happen to get in the headlines.
Actually, I'm not curious. I know the answer is either none, or next to none…sadly.
Two examples: Google for 'Rashad Hussain'. Or 'Chas W. Freeman, Jr'.
Do Christians have a history of honor killings in such cases? I think not.
Christians in America have a long history of everything. If you go back 40 years or so, the laws regarding child abuse (physical) were completely different than they are today. Anything I wanted to prove about abuse in the home (child or spousal) could be substantiated with the mountains of data about how people used to behave. Was that behavior because of their faith? Probably not. However, Liberals have used that behavior to push through Leftist laws for decades and substantially damage the Republican party with the younger generation.
That says nothing, however, about how an individual Christian might be behaving with his family. I don't believe in messing with people's families unless you have proof (or a preponderance of circumstantial evidence) to back it up.
"at least until they do something extreme" Like what….actually kill her?
We must replace any government officials that are accommodating Sharia
And your suggestion for getting rid of Odumbo before he makes Sharia law part of our country? He is a Muslim you know and hates Jews.
Yeah if you are wrong he kills her. Either here or takes her back to the craphole in the middle east and does it. I think I would rather take her word for it.
So you are saying, in essence, that Christians do have a history of honor killings in such cases?
http://www.smi.uib.no/pao/longva.html
"What struck me most was the unanimity of the condemnations. Everywhere in the Middle East these days opinions differ widely on the relationship between religion, public life and politics – with 'liberals' and 'islamists' being the two contending categories at each extreme of the continuum. Kuwait is no exception. On this particular occasion, however, I found a surprisingly strong consensus across the liberal/islamist divide. Practically everyone agreed that Qambar's conversion was a serious crime and as is the case with all crimes, it had to be punished. "
Remember, Rifqa's family is also under new immigrant status. This excerpt above suggests that no matter what brand the Muslim is liberal/Islamist, the consensus on apostasy, Rifqa's crime, is nearly universal.
Pt. 1
http://www.expertlaw.com/library/family_law/islam...
"In order to contract a valid marriage for himself or herself, a Muslim man or woman must be sane and must have reached puberty.[28] Modern laws in Islamic countries generally require that a girl have reached at least thirteen years of age, and that a boy be at least fifteen, in order to marry."
If thirteen is the general age of marriage in Islam for woman, it is likely that Rifqa could be viewed as an asult for the purposes of Shari'a apostasy law.
Des,
WACO?! You are actually stating that after ALL the time the Feds had already waited to move in on the Waco compound, it was such a desperate, dangerous situation that there was no time to consult other experts? No time to get more ideas? No time to come up with a better plan than the one that killed all those kids? You are actually advocating the Feds' unintentional killing of those kids was a better outcome than what? You think it was better for those kids to be killed than to be molested for what – one more day, one more hour, one more minute? REALLY??? Were all the kids who were killed being molested? You don't know and neither do I, but I seriously doubt they were. Were all those kids being molested while the stand-off was going on? REALLY??? Honestly, you can not believe what you are stating! Wasn't the idea to rescue them, not kill them? ARE THE KIDS BETTER OFF? THEY'RE DEAD!
You think if the Feds had a do over they'd do it the same way? Of course you don't. They should have waited. Those agents have to suffer with a lot of guilt over a rushed, botched plan that went horribly wrong.
Elian did have family here stating that the father was being forced to make those statements. Never having lived in Cuba I don't know what parents would do to get their children out of their, but I sure many would give their lives.
By the way, Elian didn't wind up with his dad, did he? He wound up live the life of a propaganda tool for Castro.
http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/honor_...
Here is an entire track explaining honor killing in the Islamic cultures. It does say that as of the writing of this article that honor killings are rare in Bangladesh, but then again, honor killings are something that have crept into the US. It is not unreasonable to assume that the brand of Islam that is being spread most aggressively, Wahhabist Islam, an Saudi import to many countries, is the sort that Rifqa's family has been getting at their local mosque.
Pt. 5
http://www.examiner.com/x-21239-Oakland-Skepticis... lastly, it appears that my suspicion that Rifqa's famiy attends a mosque teaching Wahhabi Islam is likely correct. This is a description of the scholar-in-residence: "Chief among these is the Noor Islamic Cultural Center's past "de facto 'scholar-in-residence'", Dr. Salah Sultan who is…internationally-renowned for his positions with Islamic organizations, such as the Fiqh Council of North America, the Muslim American Society, European Council for Fatwa and Research and the Islamic Association for Muslim Scholars – the last two organizations headed up by his mentor, Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, who is recognized as one of the top Muslim Brotherhood thinkers and the spiritual leader for the terrorist group Hamas. When Sultan founded the Islamic American University in the Detroit area, he named Qaradawi as the honorary chairman of the board and appointed him head of the school’s campus in Qatar, despite the fact that Qaradawi has been banned from the U.S. since 1999 for his Islamic rulings authorizing the use suicide bombing terrorist attacks."____Pt. 6
"[...] While still a Central Ohio resident he participated in the issuance of Islamic fatwas (legal rulings) authorizing attacks against U.S. military troops in Iraq through organizations he holds leadership positions in, and he has personally taken positions on Islamic issues in defense of extreme Islamic punishments, including stoning and amputations, in accordance with Islamic law. "
The list of scary people that have taught their brand of Islam at Rifqa's mosque goes on if you explore the link in pt. 6.
Given what I've uncovered with about 15-20 minutes of internet searching, it is not unreasonable to assume that Rifqa may very well be telling the truth when it comes to her family's threats.
So now we all know that anon is perfectly OK with murder. I'm sure it's wrong for him/her, but when moral equivalence leads you to allow that it's OK some of the time, then you might as well be saying it's OK all of the time.
I'm sorry but murder is murder no matter what culture accepts and allows for it.
Ummm, yeah. We should rescue every Muslim, or in this case Christian girl in America, who has been threatened with death. It isn't as if she has been threatened with grounding, or having her cell phone taken away. She knows that her life is in danger. Do some research. There have been several cases here in the U.S. of fathers killing their daughters for the "honor" of the family. She didn't pull this threat out of thin air. But, what's the life of a young girl to you? Obviously nothing. Sounds like you have your own problems with your own kids, that make you more than a little biased against Rifqa.
I take it you were against the seizure of the fundy morman children from their mothers? Note I said mothers not fathers.
"You stupid conservatives are always freaking out about Muslims killing these people or those people. It's their culture! Who are we to decide what's right or wrong?"
Mind if I marry your sister and then kill the bitch for wearing revealing, western clothing?
You want to take a slave and keep her away from her owner? (Go ahead and call this a strawman argument. We already know that you could not care less about this girl.) The fact is, in Muslim "culture" women ARE considered property, with whom fathers, and sons, can do anything they like. Including killing them to protect their twisted idea of "honor".
So, yeah. An "underground railroad" would be apropos in this situation.
Not really. Because, Hey, "it's their culture". Who are we to say that it's wrong?
I'll answer anyway. At least one. Me. I was once a teen in a bad situation, who is now in a good one. I never forget that, and I don't take what I have now for granted. What I can do, I do. And what I can give, I give.
How about you? What do you do? Besides denigrate people concerned about "one" girl? Caring about one is better than caring about none.
Fact: This girl is a child in an Islamic family.
Fact: This girl converted to Christianity
Fact: The barbaric practice of the Islam faith dictates that those that leave shall be killed.
Fact: We have seen this actually play out in this country as well as others.
Fact: The ONLY way to insure this young womans safety is to be sure she's not allowed to be put back into this family of barbarians is to legally keep her from being forced back into it.
Anymore facts we need?
even if he was,
this was hardly the time or place.
Some people won't get it until the knife is lopping there head off. It is up to people like us to even save the stupid as well as ourselves Sigh..
Des,
You think a pastor is going to have more lenient "house rules" than some guy Rifqa could move in with? Rifqa is going to be having a real wild time at a minister's house? You also think that the pastor and his wife are so stupid they will just put up with some teen-age girl who wants to run around, party, whatever – on their dime? They would kick her out if she disobeyed. Pretty simple solution.
Look, all of that is fascinating, but you can't point to anything that says her family practices any of this. Every day Muslims change faiths or get married to people their parents don't approve of, and a fraction of a percent are attacked by their parents. Once again, you're turning this into some conversation about Islamic fanaticism without bothering to prove her parents are fanatics.
If you believe that every Muslim would murder their children, then you've never actually met a Muslim.
Honestly, you're irretrievably insane (or utterly ignorant). You really believe that every Muslim on the planet will murder their children at the first sign of disobedience? Honestly?
Seriously dude, that's pathetic.
Who says every person who believes in Islam is a member of "Muslim culture"?
You are advocating kidnapping every female child from a Muslim household "for their own good." If that isn't the most stunningly insane thing I've ever read on a message board, it certainly makes the top 10.
I was not against it because there were accusations of child abuse. The second those claims were disproven (according to police) the children were returned (as they should have been).
As I said, I don't know what their rules were (neither do you, evidently). I agree that it seems unlikely that his house was some kind of party loft, but it certainly could have been less restrictive than her homelife. There are plenty of very Liberal preachers (ones who preach social justice or other things that seem very un-Biblical). I hate that we're talking about something that neither of us know about and trying to use it to win an argument.
The truth is that neither of us know, which is my entire argument. We don't know, we are guessing based on partial information and our own prejudices, and nothing is getting accomplished other than some people here sounding like utter loons (I've seen posts advocating the murder of Muslims, the expelling of all Muslims from America, and the forcible taking of their children by the government). Like I said with my first post, I can't believe that normally rational people are sounding like something out of a Daily Kos parody.
Their plan didn't kill those kids. They were murdered by the cult members out of desperation, the same as what happened in Jonestown.
Elian didn't have family here. He had distant relatives who he'd never met, and who'd never met the father. If you're relying on their statements to make your case, then you've already lost.
There were no "death threats" from her family. She claimed that ONE TIME her father threatened to kill her (and none of us know if it's even true because there is no corroboration).
What are you talking about? When did I call her a "Muslim girl?" Show me one post where I said she was a Muslim girl.
So now you're reduced to making stuff up completely?
That's a big assumption to take away someone's child. "If we're wrong they could be killed/abused/molested, so let's just take them all away to be safe…"
Could you possibly be advocating for bigger government?
Oh Please. You apologists for the Islamic cult are really beginning to bore me. If it looks like a duck, quack likes a duck, then it's a cult that kills as part of it's culture. In a country based on laws, these people shouldn't even be allowed to have children unless they renounce their belief in this cult's teachings. Anything else is pure ignorance of the facts. Stop trying to defend the indefensible. This family lost it's right to keep children the day they subscribed to a belief system that says if that child strays from said system they can/should be killed. Animals. Bottom of the evolutionary tree.
Where are all of the big mouths who claim to be Christians in our government now?
I thought we had slick guys who would love to take a stand for Rifqu.
They seem to want to take a stand for all the creeps that are on the Muslim side of the fence.
The blood of this child will be on many peoples hands.
God forbid that this should happen.
Common Sense tell me what is right or wrong you idiot.
God you are such a tool
So now we've got another "Conservative" saying the government should prevent Muslims from having children.
Is there any point where someone else is going to say, "Hey, there may be some idiots on this board"?
I don't know, how about anything that suggests extremism? They allowed her to be a cheerleader. How many Islamic fundamentalists do you suppose allows their 16 year-old daughter to dress in a miniskirt and do gymnastics in front of a crowd?
I'm not saying there isn't a chance she really is in danger. I'm saying let's quit with the baseless allegations and let the authorities make the call.
I'm saying that with 5 minutes of research, I could find a dozen instances of someone who claims to be a Christian who has killed a child (or done something equally abominable). When someone makes a blanket statement that, "Well, Christians wouldn't do something like that," it's crap. We're human and there are bad and crazy people in every faith (or no faith).
In other countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran, there is a much more prevelent problem with honor killings among Muslims. Some of that insanity has made it's way to our shores. But to make the leap that all Muslims would do something like that given the right circumstances is just crazy.
- that the child needs a different legal team is a valid point
-I would posit that many of us have seen children removed from the home with far less reason than this and other times have seen them returned to families who kill them–both of which happened in my previous town
- that the parents attend a radical mosque absolutely suggests her claim be taken seriously and investigated far more seriously than by an overworked social services department
-no one is suggesting that every female muslim child be removed from the home, only those who are threatened by their parents
-I do not see evidence of a loving family on display, so none is being broken up
-non-muslims from muslim countries have told me hair raising tales of imprisonment, beatings and fleeing their country under cover of darkness with nothing but what they had on when they got the word that the goons were looking for them
Waco was a debacle on many fronts–only one of which I'll present… the leader could have been apprehended at any time by any law enforcement officer with due cause during his weekly meal at the local diner. If I remember correctly, Reno had tanks at the compound. Tanks. Diner. Children burned in a locked basement room. Debacle.
Sometimes our law enforcement officials do err. The girl needs a competent team of lawyers.
[...] » Running Out the Clock On Rifqa Bary While the Dhimmi Media Sleeps – Big Journalism [...]
Yes, and even one is too many.
Nice. Name-calling. I cry "uncle", you win, all your arguments and reasonings are right, and I am wrong. /sarc
I didn't make insinuations about your child, what I said was about you. And even so, since when do you have a problem with making insinuations against children? You've made plenty about Rifqa.
Ah, yes. Silly of me to forget that liberal double standard thingy.
"You continually repeat "every" as if all muslim female children are leaving Islam or refusing to follow their parents' demands and are being threatened with death. No one is making that claim."
You need to reread this thread. There are most certainly several people making that exact argument. Not that they've been threatened (which we don't know if this one has either), but that they are in danger because all Muslims are potential murderers of their own children.
I am not unwilling to grant the possibility, I've done it in at least a dozen posts here. I'm saying that the police, social workers, lawyers and judges need to work it out because the rest of us don't have all the facts and are doing nothing but jacking up the hyperbole (and obviously many here are doing it for their own reasons, not out of any concern about the girl).
I used to date a Muslim girl (as I said in another post), and she told me stories about the way girls were treated, so you're not telling me anything I don't know. It was never my point (nor was it stated by me in any post) that this couldn't happen, or even wasn't the case. I just said that everyone is assuming it's true based on their own prejudices, not on the facts of the case.
You are right about the ATF blowing the original arrest because they were showboating. Everything that happened after that (including the murder of the women and children) happened because people joined a cult and nothing could persuade them to leave (not even the sexual abuse of their own children). The tanks were necessary because the cultists (I will NEVER call them Christians) were heavily armed and had already shown they were willing to kill. I don't know what else could have been done to persuade those loons to peacefully give up. I've never heard a single expert offer an alternative that would have worked.
"Please continue to state your points repeatedly. Logic requires acceptable premises and yours are not holding up to scrutiny."
I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to say here, but since you mis-stated almost every point you said I made, I'm not sure how you make the claim that my premises aren't holding up. Not that I'm saying I'm right, but every point you made was never said by me, so I have no idea what premises you're talking about.
Where do I say I advocate the kidnapping of every female child from a Muslim household? Where do I even mention kidnapping?
I suggested nothing filthy about your child. WTH?
This child will be killed if she is sent back to Sri Lanka…there is no doubt in my mind. Dear Leader and his administration will be guilty of her loss of life. It makes me wonder if he has the potential for millions of deaths on his hands…only time will tell.
Nevermind. I figured out WTH. All I can do is apologize for my son, who thought he was "defending" his mom. What he said, I would not have, but as he is mine, the responsibility lies with me. He apologizes, too….Check back in a week when his "electronic privileges" have been restored. He will render his own. Once again, sincerely, I apologize for a totally uncalled-for remark.
Des, what do you think SHOULD be done when a teen claims that she is being threatened with death, and Sharia law and previous evidence in other similar cases support her credibility?
If that is the case then anon is always sarcastic….his prejudice always shows every time he logs on.
She is a mugwump…..
I would honestly like to know what I said that he felt was an attack on his mom (I'm not sure who that is). There was quite a bit of heated rhetoric flying back and forth between several people, so if I said anything that was inappropriate, you can tell him I apologize as well.
I don't come here to fight and rarely have blowups with anyone (other than the Liberal trolls who post on Big Government about ACORN). I get why people fear for this girl's safety, I do as well. At some point, however, we have to trust our court system to get things right. Too many people come to a decision, then filter everything through that prism. Sometimes the facts take us in a direction we didn't anticipate. In the case of Rifqa, I am honestly hopeful that this is a case of an over-dramatic teenager. Having adults helping kids to leave homes that they claim (unsubstantiated) are abusive or dangerous is a terrible precedent. It's exactly what the Liberals use to push the anti-parental notification agenda (and if it makes you feel better, I'm about 1000% more opposed to that). Nobody is going to touch my child on my watch, whether they think they are helping her or not.
The day is coming to soon to America if they win trials like this….
"How about you? What do you do?"
It's a good question, and the answer is not enough at the moment. Things have been tough since Captain Transparency got elected, so right now I'm just doing whatever I can to stay afloat. I own a sound company and donate my services when there's a need, but that's the extent of what I've been unable to do lately. I'm not a hypocrite (at least not on this issue), I know I should do more (as should we all). My point wasn't to attack anyone about their service, but to point out that if they are disproportionately concerned about this girl while not doing a lot in their real life for others like her, then they probably need to re-examine why this case is so disquieting to them.
Take her to Mexico and run out the clock until she turns 18.
"I would posit that many of us have seen children removed from the home with far less reason than this and other times have seen them returned to families who kill them–both of which happened in my previous town."
That is an excellent point, although I'd posit that it makes my point more than yours. I had a girlfriend whose neighbor had a 6 year-old autistic boy taken away for several weeks (imagine that nightmare for the child) because he showed up at school with a bruise. The teacher asked how it happened, and the child (afraid to get his friend in trouble for accidentally knocking him down) said his mom did it. It took months before the government got completely our of their lives.
The girl said her dad threatened her, so I think it is entirely appropriate that they did a thorough investigation. The problem is that when the authorities said the investigation showed nothing to verify the threat or any danger to the girl, a bunch of people (who seemed to be more interested in the big picture of Islamic issues) refused to accept it. Could the authorities have been wrong? Yes. Am I being cavalier about her situation? No. I just would rather rely on the opinions of the experts involved in the case than people who make their living by whipping up controversy.
I don't know. I will find out in a week when we are back, and he apologizes. He can show me then. Sorry it can't be sooner, but I restricted his electronics-all of them- and the only exception to that is an emergency. However, I can assure you that what he said carried NO connotations of "filth". His mind does not work that way.
His mom is me. Which makes it physically impossible for me to be a dickhead, BTW, and now I have to try and explain to him what a "douchebag" is. Oh well, it's not like I thought the day would never come, LOL.
Bottom line for me, is that I take the position of it's better to be safe than sorry. I was an abused teen who was not believed, and people assumed I was just "angry" and "acting out". I realize that teens do lie: my dot had one who came to me with accusations of her mom abusing her. She stayed with us for a few days, but I refused to "hide" her. She had to call her parents, and I told her that I was calling CPS. For some reason, no one could come and check on this girl for four days, and the day before CPS showed, she finally told the truth and admitted she and her dad had a fight about her boyfriend. But I still feel the right thing was to keep her apart from her parents until it was resolved. (BTW, I kept her at my house with the knowledge and consent of her parents. If I hadn't had that, I would have personally taken her to CPS offices right away.)
I hope that this is a case of an overdramatic teen, also. The alternative is hard to wrap my mind around, but what she is afraid of does happen. That is why I feel she should be protected, even if it turns out that she is only being protected from what she thinks are overly strict parents. The outcome of that would be an embarrassed teen, who caused a lot of stink. However, if she is telling the truth, and she gets sent back to her parents, the outcome of that is a dead girl. I just can't rely on hoping this girl is a Sarah Bernhardt.
A good book on the 'religion of Islam'. Why I left Islam, by Walid Shoebat, an ex-P.L.O Terrorists. Walid explains the history of Islam and it's correlation to Nazi Germany. The Nazi's got most of their hate from the Islamists. Islam is a 'Religion' of HATE and violence dating back to it's foundation. Islam has always tried to destroy Jews and Christians. Walid Soebat also explains Biblical Prophecy and todays events. Very interesting information from an 'insider'.
Margot, a minor can't get emancipation in Ohio. She might have had a chance in Florida.
If she is killed, then who will be penalized?
Des, the legal investigation was far from "thorough".
1. Rifqa supplied the names of witnesses who knew about the violence in her home but none of these was interviewed. They only spoke to one person, a teacher, even though Rifqa had said she couldn't actually remember whether the teacher knew anything or not. Why didn't they start with the witnesses whom Rifqa said had most information?
2. Rifqa said that the Noor Mosque leaders had put pressure on her father to "deal with her," but these leaders were not investigated at all.
3. The Ohio police also said they knew about death-threats against Rifqa, but the police were never interviewed either.
Do you know where I could find out that information first hand? I haven't seen it before, so would like to see what the source is and the full context.
Thanks.
Wow, that's some strawman you're carrying around there. Are you suggesting that we immediately pull all children out of homes because somebody might be getting abused somewhere? Perhaps the government could do a better job of raising our children, since merely being around us puts them in such grave danger.
"I guess I'm the only one who has ever heard of a teenager being untruthful (or even exaggerating)."
No, but you are apparently the only one not to notice that there are a disturbing number of cases both here and Canada of young Muslim women being victims of "honor killing" for such grave offenses as refusing to wear a hijab.
And if she's sent back to her family and gets her throat cut, I'm sure you'll be ready with a heartfelt "My bad." Which won't make her any less dead.
Wow. And to think your parents spent good money in the vain hope of getting you an education. They should demand their money back.
[...] » Running Out tһе Clock Oח Rifqa Bary WһіƖе tһе Dhimmi … [...]
"Kufr is a sin typically associated with Jews and Christians. Over the years, Muslim scholars in charge of the official orthodoxy have also tended to brand those straying from this orthodoxy [4] as kuffar, unbelievers. But kufr does not include the idea of apostasy in the sense of 'abanbonment of faith'. This idea is expressed by the term ridda. Ridda refers more specifically to the crime committed by one who has had the privilege of being born in, or introduced to, the true faith and yet chooses to reject this privilege often to embrace another faith. While kufr has been the object of many controversies among the experts of kalam, ridda is the object of unanimous and unequivocal condemnation, and there is no doubt as to what consequences it has on the religious and legal status of the apostate."
This explains that Rifqa is actually ridda and not simply kufr and therefore, her crime is that much more severe in the eyes of Islam and again there is nearly unanimous condemnation of such as she. Her parents are highly unlikely to be foregiving unless they are very, very rare Muslims indeed.
Pt. 2
"The scientific literature on apostasy in any European language is limited. The discussion focuses almost exclusively on the death penalty. The conservative view holds that death by execution is pre-ordained and is supported by all the four sunni schools as well as Shi'a Islam. [6] The liberal view argues that the death penalty is not pre-ordained since it stems not from the Qur'an, as is usually believed, but from the prophetic hadith which says 'whoever changes his religion, kill him'."
Liberal or Islamist, generally the penalty for apostasy ends up being the same: death.
Pt. 3
You can't speak about such things as the death penalty for apostasy. Such things are uncivil. To do so would mean you're… Argumentative, loudmouthed, uncouth, perhaps even racist. Or so the seeker's of Rifqa's death will tell us. You cannot have an honest negotiation with someone whose intent is to simply kill you.
[...] » Running Out the Clock On Rifqa Bary While the Dhimmi Media … [...]
Whoa! The Columbus Dispatch is anti-Christian? That is news to anyone in central Ohio.
What you are saying is not the same thing. We are talking about a specific act (honor killing) here. We know that it is condoned within much of Islam. We know that it has occurred even here in our country. We know that killing a child is never condoned in Christianity, nor is pedophilia or any number of heinous acts committed by persons whom you aptly describe as "claiming" to be Christians. With 5 minutes of research you can find numerous accounts of honor killings that involve stonings, beheadings, shootings, and stabbings. To dismiss this possibility indicates a willful blindness on your part. It is akin to the behavior of Social Services departments who send children back into dangerous home environments, with the result that some are injured and killed.
"No, I don't think the ATF intentionally burned down the compound, thereby murdering all the children."
Well, then I take back anything I said about your being nutty. I've dealt with a lot of conspiracy theorists who refuse to believe the obvious (and substantiated) evidence about what happened there. I consider them to be equally as unbalanced as 9/11 Truthers, and trying to talk to them is like talking to a wall (except slightly less productive).
As for your comment about Cuba, what "family" are you talking about. The distant relatives in Florida had never met the father (or Elian), so couldn't make any intelligent comment about him or his wishes. The story never changed from day one that the mother fled Cuba with her new husband, taking Elian away from his father forever and risking his life in the process. The father always said he wanted him back. You can choose to believe that he didn't really want him back and was just forced to ask by Castro, but I think that is also silly (and completely unsubstantiated by any facts). To me there is no discussion. If a father wants to be with his child, no one has any right to deny him unless he is a danger to that child. All the ranting about Cuba is nonsense because a father can raise his child in any place in the world and find a way to do a good job. No one has the right to interfere because they think they know what's best for them.
And if she does get returned to her family, or deported, and then killed, what will your reaction be? Will you apologize to the rest of us for being wrong? Will you even feel bad or just feel justified about doing the "right/legal" thing? Oh well, can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, eh wot?
We're quickly heading in that direction.
For example, it was earlier mentioned that a Muslim father in Arizona used his SUV to run over and kill his "too Westernized" daughter.
Here's the cruel punchline. Instead of the death penalty, the father is merely going to prison. Thus, fear of being labelled "Islamophobic" has resulted in a Muslim getting a lighter sentence that someone of another faith or no faith. Read more here:
http://action.afa.net/Blogs/BlogPost.aspx?id=2147...
So, Bary has EVERY right to take her father's death threat seriously if he said it. And she should be afraid as we all should be of the courts being more concerned of pleasing sharia-loving Muslims instead of standing by the laws of OUR country.
Jeffrey Dahmer also looked like a nice guy…until the public learned of all the people who murdered and ate.
Men should be judged by their actions not their appearances.
I've heard Shoebat speak on various conservative talk radio shows. This is one bold Christian and a proud American.
By the way, here is Mr. Shoebat's site which reveals the REAL deal about the Muslim faith he left:
http://shoebat.com/
I'm late getting back. FYI, I hadn't intended to post my original comment. I often sound off, then go back to make sense. I realized, too late, that you were not the one I disagreed with. Thanks for not yelling at me too much. I do not doubt that the parents love their child–what I doubt is the quality of the help the girl is getting and what we hear about her legal team is not encouraging. How complicated can this get with the parents unable or unwilling to produce proof that they are in this country illegally and the girl about to be 18? Is there any other circumstance that can be piled on to make this more of a puzzle? I having been praying that this is resolved without the girl's death, what ever the truth.
You're such a pathetic liar. We have a case of a girl who says her father threatened to kill her and who says she was abused physically and otherwise over the years. A girl who is terrified of her parents and willing to stay in foster care instead. And I clearly wrote of children who are ABUSED and SPEAK OUT about the abuse.
And you pretend that applies to every child? You pretend this is about taking away children when in fact it is about preventing the government from forcibly, by violence if need be, "returning" kids to parents who abuse them.
You're talking like a spokesman for a parental child molesters union. And the doublespeak is amazing: the government not forcing terrified and unwilling kids back to their abusive parents is somehow equivalent to the government forcibly removing perfectly happy children from loving parents? What a sick mind you have…
Des,
"So should we run in and "rescue" every Muslim girl in America?"
Those are your words, Des, not mine. Pretty sure since we've all been discussing Rifqa, including you, anyone would assume you are referring Rifqa as a "Muslim girl" because, obviously , you were!
No one needs to make up ridiculous comments to reply to you – you supply all the ammo anyone needs. I see that in your maturity you hurl insults and call posters playground names. I won't bother to read your boorish reply.
Thinker67,
Consider any disgusting name calling from Des a badge of honor!
Good point that Des continues to her as a "Muslim girl"
Overlooking the fact that this sentence barely qualifies as English, you use the word "continues," which implies I've done it repeatedly (then you site one suspect example).
No, I never called her a Muslim, I replied to the comment that all Muslims were dangerous because they believed in the Koran (which calls for the murder of apostates, as well as any number of other offenses). So I replied with questioning if we needed to "rescue" every Muslim girl in America. I never called Rifqa a Muslim (and you can't show a single example of me doing so), but since you pointed out this ludicrous attempt of catching me making a mistake, I have to take a minute and point out how stupid it really is.
Seriously, you need to get better at this or find a different hobby.
Yeah, since you're too clueless to follow an actual conversation, you missed the part where Thinker apologized to me for the disgusting smear towards my 9 year-old child under his username (which he said was his son using his account).
But by all means, pretend I use disgusting name calling on a regular basis. Don't let the facts get in the way of your rantings. After all, you haven't up to now.
Des,
I notice that once again you didn't answer the question. So I'll repeat – maybe someone else can help us out with whether those kids were better off dead or molested. Whether or not it would have been prudent to wait it at Waco instead of causing the deaths of innocent children. I believe the ultimate goal was to rescue the kids, not get them all killed so they wouldn't be molested anymore.
Des: (Don't want him saying I'm misquoting him):
"Well, concerning Waco I'm wondering just how long we're supposed to let a criminal (an extremely well-armed one) continue to molest children with impunity while the government waits outside asking him nicely to stop? "
My unanswered question to Des:
WACO?! You are actually stating that after ALL the time the Feds had already waited to move in on the Waco compound, it was such a desperate, dangerous situation that there was no time to consult other experts? No time to get more ideas? No time to come up with a better plan than the one that killed all those kids? You are actually advocating the Feds' unintentional killing of those kids was a better outcome than what? You think it was better for those kids to be killed than to be molested for what – one more day, one more hour, one more minute? REALLY??? Were all the kids who were killed being molested? You don't know and neither do I, but I seriously doubt they were. Were all those kids being molested while the stand-off was going on? REALLY??? Honestly, you can not believe what you are stating! Wasn't the idea to rescue them, not kill them? ARE THE KIDS BETTER OFF? THEY'RE DEAD!
Des, I hope we can have a civil debate with name calling. I 'm sure none of us care for that. In fairness, you've stopped with the nut-job jabs at me. Thanks.
"For example, it was earlier mentioned that a Muslim father in Arizona used his SUV to run over and kill his "too Westernized" daughter."
The only problem with this example is that the daughter in question was in her 20s and no longer lived with the family. The situation with Rifqa is different in every way. As I said before (repeatedly), I'm not claiming she isn't in danger, just that all the hyperbole has little to do with her specific situation, and more to do with people trying to use her as a metaphor for their gripe with Islam. We should argue that separately and let the authorities sort this out on their own.
"You want to take a slave and keep her away from her owner? The fact is, in Muslim "culture" women ARE considered property, with whom fathers, and sons, can do anything they like."
You call her a slave, then say all Muslim women are slaves. Then you say an underground railroad situation would be appropriate. So you're saying all Muslim women are slaves, and because this girl is a slave, she should be kidnapped (taking a minor across state lines is kidnapping because they don't have the right to give permission). How did I misquote you?
You know what is disturbing? Not that this person (or someone using his account) just implied something sexual about my 9 year-old child, but that some douchebag on this site (who calls himself a Conservative) gave him a thumbs up for doing so….just because I disagree with them politically.
People ask me why I'm not a Conservative? Well, take a look.
And I got two negative votes for politely asking for the proof so I could read it for myself to be more educated. What the hell has happened to this site?
I wouldn't even go so far as saying I'm sure that the parents love the girl (at least not in a way we'd call love). I'm saying I flat out don't know anything other than what she's claimed and what they've claimed. To my knowledge there is no additional proof out there. That leaves me in a position where I ask people to tone down the rhetoric until we know more. People often try to turn private family matters into some caricature of their own beliefs. It's better to argue our beliefs separately, then let the families sort out their personal tragedies without our input.
I liked your post (although I'll be honest and I was a bit too rude when I first read it). I'm not a yeller, and don't mind at all people disagreeing with me (and don't assume I'm right just because I have an opinion). If you read the entire thread, you'll see a lot of name-calling and accusations (and ridiculous stawmen arguments), so it was easy to lump in someone new to the discussion to the last person who just called me a serial child abuser. {sigh}
I think your solution of praying for the right resolution is the best suggestion on this entire thread.
"So I'll repeat – maybe someone else can help us out with whether those kids were better off dead or molested."
And I'll try again. The authorities didn't know the cult members would murder the children, so took what seemed to be the best course of action. Every time in the history of policework that someone decides to storm a compound (including the Israeli's assault in Munich), there's a chance that it could go horribly wrong. To Monday-morning quarterback and say, "See, they would have been better off to stay in that situation," is unfair and dishonest. If the raid had succeeded and there had been minimal loss of life (which is what would have happened if some of the cult members hadn't set fire to the compound), then it would have been a terrific decision (after the initial bad ones).
You're offering me a false choice because no one knew what was going to happen. If they'd stayed outside for another year, how do you know that the results wouldn't have still been the same (with the only difference being another year of abuse and intense stress for the children). Would that have been better?
The truth is, we'll never know. And I only called you a nut-job once (and even then only said if you believed the government intentionally murdered those people you were a nut-job), and took it back when you explained your position. Maybe if you stopped moving the arguments to new areas of the thread you would have seen it.
You know, considering our porous border situation, that really is a great idea. It would be easy for her to make it back into the country, and once she made it back as an illegal immigrant from Mexico there are about a dozen states she could go to where she'd never have to worry about deportation.
I want to offer someone whose life is in jeopardy safe harbor. And she's welcome to stay in my spare bedroom (it's actually my Mother's house) as long as she wants. She's a little girl that needs to be protected from her murderous barbaric family. They want to murder her because her beliefs are different. And if the government is too corrupt or inept to protect her the citizens of this nation must. She wants asylum. She should have it. We let every law-breaking illegal alien into this nation, but the minute someone actually needs the safety our nation provides the government decides to kick her out? The parallel to escaped slaves is quite clear. Bondage or honor killing = immoral evil. And like the abolitionists who broke the law to help freed slaves there are those of us willing to break the law to save innocent children from a barbaric backwards culture of murder, honor killings, and hate. Read about Taliban rape rooms. Iranian stonings. Forced clitorectomies. Rifqa has a right to life.
Pamela, in all seriousness, why don't you volunteer your services? You seem like you know what you're talking about. I don't mean any disrespect, so please don't take this as a sarcastic question. But, why not help if you're able? You have the knowledge, and probably the resources to really make a difference in this young woman's life… by helping avoid a potential death sentence that we ALL KNOW is Wrong. Maybe you could call up some friends and have them help out if you cannot.
The thing is, Des, nothing would happen to her when she goes back to her family, UNTIL they move back to Sri Lanka. Then they will have Sharia Law to back them up, and that DOES mean a potential death sentence for her. You read the article… it said that her amily had their bags packed to move back there once they got her back into their custody. Not to mention CAIR is representing them. So, they can have all the "we're a loving family" type pictures on the news, but what they're doing speaks volumes about what their intentions really are. I know kids lie, but look at the people involved in this… they're people that are usually up to no good… especially CAIR.
No argument. It's really a possibility, and one I'm glad not to have to face.
I lost track of the Muslim girl I dated for a short time. She was about 19 (a couple of years younger than me) at the time and told me her father had promised her to some guy she didn't like (which was probably why she was fooling around with me). About a year after the last time I saw her, she called me out of the blue, but I was in a relationship (and my girlfriend was sitting next to me when the call came in, which made it impossible to talk about why she called). I never heard from her again and often wondered if she got out of her situation or not.
Hopefully the authorities will do the right thing (whatever that is in this case). I'm careful about what I believe of the facts reported because we all know that the media (all of it) is more than happy to spin things to fit their agenda. I don't dispute anything you said, I just hope it doesn't go down that way unless Rifqa changes her mind and decides that's what she wants. It would suck to live in this country only to be moved to a place where you lose most of that freedom without any choice in the matter.
Go to AtlasShrugged, which is Geller's website. Rifqa's father said that he would hurt her because she converted to Christianity. Rifqa has already been attacked by her brother. Also, her brother put out information about Rifqa when she ran away to Florida to escape from her parents. Her brother put out information for muslims to find her and kill her. These threats aren't hypothetical, as you seem to believe.
This story is about Islam. Rifqa is in danger because she left Islam and converted to Christianity. Her parents will want her dead rather than accept her Christian faith.
If you got off your ass and read everything about what has happened to this poor girl, then you wouldn't be hypothesizing about maybe this, maybe that. There are real threats and injuries to this girl, including her eye injury caused by her brother. And her parents's refusal to get medical help for her, which was the basis of why her lying parents wanted to come to this country.
Too true.
I was SHOCKED when USA Today even posed the question of honor killing in the US:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-11-29-ho...
You are such a twit. First you say openly that its STUPID not to "return" (in this context AGAINST THEIR WILL) to a parent a child he has ABUSED.
Next you bring up falsely accused, and say GOVERNMENT should be trusted here when in fact it has been GOVERNMENT that has been responsible for a large share of falsely accused cases, including bona fide public panics.
Indeed nearly ALL cases of falsely accused have an ADULT behind them, typically a spouse or someone from law enforcement.
What is utterly unheard of is 17-year-old girls alleging abuse and threats and willing to remain in foster care rather than return to her parents. Teens do not dream of living in foster care, and it sure is no paradise for them.
And you totally ignore the fact that scores of children, far more that falsely jailed parents, are horribly abused or killed AFTER some UNPROVEN allegations already surfaced. But that is not enough for you, you want the die to be fully loaded against children.
You present an utterly bogus dichotomy of either having to convict the parents of child abuse or forcibly, by violence if need be, delivering Rifqa to them as a piece of property or a runaway slave. The bottom line is you'd rather have children DIE then merely ALLOW them to stay away from parents they fear but are unable to prove will likely kill or endanger them. Better have dead or abused or terrified children than absolute property rights to kids being violated, right?
That is an insane and murderous policy.
What' CAIR paying for trolling these days, Des?
I don't know. What's the going rate on posting stupid comments accusing people of things that have no basis in truth?
Des,
You are not correct in your facts. I will assume you are misinformed.
Oh please. That argument is so phony and overwrought it's laughable. You say if a father abuses his child but leaves no proof, then we shouldn't be returning the child. Not only is this stupid (because there is almost always proof of abuse), but it doesn't take into account the decades of evidence of parents who've been falsely accused. We put the authorities in charge to do their best to be the best experts on the subject and to do the most honest, impartial job possible.
Then the minute someone doesn't like their decision they run out and scream that "we" have to do something (including idiots like this minister who helped her run away from home). As a Conservative, the only thing that "we" should be doing is obeying the law, then pushing for change when it's lacking (although I'm not a true Conservative, so I'm more speaking for the Conservatives out there who are constantly screaming for smaller government and respect for the rule of law).
I don't agree with you so you insinuate I don't care about this girl or I'm in favor of child abuse. It's pathetic.
I've noticed. Could you please tell me how many is a "disturbing number"? Then we'll compare that against the number of Muslim kids who grow up happy and healthy. Then we'll discuss the meaning of the word hyperbole.
[...] » Running Out the Clock On Rifqa Bary While the Dhimmi Media … [...]
Name me which fact is incorrect and then show me the correct one. I'm not the kind of person who refuses to admit if someone else is right. Of course the bigger question is, can you actually provide facts, or are you relying on 2nd hand stories that you chose to believe without investigating them?
1. Rifqa's FDLE interview. Most online versions are shortened because the original was over two hours long. If you have two hours to listen, I recommend attending to the fullest version you can (although I think the addresses of her witnesses have been edited out of just about every version). She does explain the cheerleading issue fully, i.e. that her father did drive her to practices but never stayed to watch a match (both facts that he also admitted) so he never saw the skimpy costume; and that she hid the cheerleading photo (her father admits they searched her room after she ran away, as any parent would, so they could easily have found the photo for the first time then – i.e. the fact that they promptly showed it to everyone in sight doesn't prove they had it before Rifqa ran away). Anyway, one version begins here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiH51GupYgQ&fe...
2. Rifqa's affidavit to her lawyer. http://www.orlandolawyer.tv/documents/Rifqa%20Aff...
3. Blake & Beverly Lorenz's Fox interview. In addition to their remarks about the Ohio police and Rifqa's teacher, they also reported that when Beverly first asked Rifqa if there had been domestic violence in her home, she had replied, "No." But when Beverly rephrased the question as, "Did your father ever hit your mother," Rifqa immediately answered, "Yes." I suppose they could in theory have been fabricating, but that detail rang very true to me. http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/faith_news/0...
Yes, any person here could be lying. My point is that the allegations were never properly investigated.
Not really.
So you people really don't recognize the satire in anon's comment? Really? Are you really that dim witted?
Only problem is, she doesn't want to grow up Muslim. She has already rejected Islam and become a Christian, and for this, her family's religion dictates that they are honor-bound to kill her.
It's not merely "teenage rebellion" or "childish disobedience" (and everyone else here seems to know that but you). In the eyes of Islam, it's apostasy and it's unforgivable and irreconcilable. The only thing her family is ALLOWED to do is see to it that she does not survive, if she will not renounce her Christian faith.
Des, do you get that yet?
Des,
One such case of "honor killing" is disturbing enough.
Hyperbole is catastrophizing a situation which is highly unlikely to occur. Within the last two years, there have been at least six cases of Muslim girls from immigrant families being killed by their fathers within the US, with several more cases in Canada. "Muslim kids who grow up happy and healthy" generally don't go running to the cops claiming that their family wants to kill them. I'm inclined to believe a young woman who says her immigrant Islamic family is trying to kill her, especially given the fact that she's converted to Christianity.
Given the pathetic track record of "the authorities", who have apparently chosen to place Diversity as a higher priority than guaranteeing the safety of the public, I find your faith in their ability to properly assess Rifqa's situation naive.
Excuse me, but it's our country and our laws. They know the rules as well as anyone else. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with freedom and humanity. When a child's cry for help goes unanswered we all lose. It doesn't matter what the customs of her parents faith are if she is afraid for her life, you must help her. Unless, of course, you have no humanity…….
what kind of a moron are you? It's in their religion…death to infidels. Look up the definition of infidel. She's an infidel for crying-out-loud. They will kill her. Jeeze, get your head out of your butt.
Gee, if you're going to use that kind of logic how can I argue? {/sarcasm}
You know, shockingly something like a billion Muslims manage to make it through every day without killing an infidel. I know it'll surprise you, but you might want to check it out. There are even Muslim kids in America who change faiths or otherwise reject the strict interpretation of the faith who manage to survive their murderous parents. Other than a handful of high profile cases each year, the actual incidents of violence in the US like this are remarkably small. So your claim that she's as good as dead is pretty amazingly stupid.
You might want to take your own advice until you actually look up facts to offset your hysteria.
Wow most of you people are the dumbest people i've ever read about EVER …. WOW….PLEASE GO BACK TO SCHOOL OR SCRATCH THAT…JUST please please try and just READ a few books that actually tell the TRUTH in them………….so un-educated you are one all not only all the major faiths in the world…but the 'democracy' of our country….let alone the credentials of the writer of this article…
Sir-
I apologize for being rude. I thought you were wrong to call my mom a "dickhead" and a "douchebag".
I thought that since you threw a stick and a stone, I would too, in her defense. I am very sorry. Two wrongs don't make a right, and mom says the second person to jump is more wrong than the first.
(Sorry this took longer than a week to send to you. My mom was away, and I had to wait for her to get back.)
You know, you're going to have to forgive me for not taking this "apology" too seriously. First, I'm astonished if your son has reached an age where he can participate in these discussions without ever hearing the term "dickhead." Second, if you are really protecting him, why wouldn't you just tell him the word "douchebag" was a rude insult? Why the need to describe what it actually is (since that obviously wasn't what I was saying).
Finally, in his "apology" he says that I called his mom a dickhead and a douchebag, which was why he was upset. The only problem is that I've looked at every post on this site, and those words only happened in your posts and mine when I was angrily reacting to his smear against my daughter. Since his post said that he hoped I wasn't doing anything inappropriate with my 9 year-old child, I'm going to call BS on your claim that he wasn't thinking anything nasty. And since he made that post even though I never used either of those words, I'm still waiting to find out what I said to his mom that was so wrong (since I don't know her username I can't check for myself).
We can end this right here. I'm not angry, but I really have no desire to interact with you or your family in the future. I'll do my best to avoid your posts, since there are so many runaway accusations and denials. I have no interest in twisting anyone's arm for an apology, nor an explanation. I just wanted to find out if I indeed said something inappropriate in the heat of the moment.
There is no need to apologize, but FYI I've checked every post on this thread and I never called anyone either of those names until after the post that mentioned my child. Whatever upset you was certainly not that. If you feel that whatever was said was inappropriate, then you have my apologies. Without knowing what it actually was, I'll have to assume I crossed a line.
Here is latest news on this story. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM...
If the Barys have already filed papers to adjusted their immigration status, the child can't. Also, the U.S. courts have no evidence of what could happen to the girl in Sri Lanka. But as much as Pam has complained about the courts and media, the US courts have helped Rifqa.
This story isn't news worthy. This is why even FOX has stopped talking about this. Pam's only interest is she believes this is girl was under threat from a honor killing. When the judge rules that Sri Lanka is too dangerous for Rifqa guess Pam will be vindicated/ But as it says in the article, Ohio authorities are still investigating the illegal abduction of the under-aged Bary girl. What next, a girl runs away because she wants breast implants or a tattoo abd she alleges her parents said they would harm her?
Shes a runaway but it is only interesting to Pam because she covered from Islam. If Bary converted to Islam and had Christian parents who allegedly said they'd harm her, would she care?
The Bary family are murderers….they killled Rifqa, let's stop calling her by that sick Muslim name it makes me puke to hear such a stupid Islamic name being used for our hero.
Let's take this kid all over the muslim world and generate many more Rifqas from her.Amen!
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